Warrior Rework to Balance the job

[MikoRemi]

Try job consistency instead of "homogenization", a much better term instead of the lameduck term that keeps coming up.

Tankings pretty fine, were sturdy, we do our job, DPS speed it up so its not unbearable and healers help when things are down or stuff gets heavy. More noticeable in extreme and higher but yeah, if dungeons were as much of a slog to get through as the SB era where nobody wants to use their buttons at all, yeah nah thanks.

Credible threats; DF and PF healers trolling by barely healing or dying repeatedly, and slow DPS making runs unbearably slow, and cotanks doing really bad jobs with tanking. The amount of runs I have to try to salvage in roulettes would add up real fast. Not to mention how nice it is in Eureka/Bozja to be able to self heal for various reasons, let alone deep dungeons or how handy it is in the higher tiered content where things actually hurt. I'm not part of any 0.1% speedkill group so we can safely rule that out given the general state of DF/PF at any given time. I don't need a snapshot moment of sustain, I just want to get the job done. Best moment as a tank is when everything goes smooth even after I greed and alternatively min/max my Damnation for that physical reflect.

Given the state as is where tanks didn't go through much of a rework from EW, it's a pretty solid ground especially with how PLD got a giant shield on Guardian, and as you mentioned the Thrill of Battle effect on Great Nebula for GNB, shoot even DRK got an excog on Shadowed Vigil. Clearly were doing fine, Healers just need to be more fun which is a whole other issue to work on, and DRK just needs to become consistent with the rest of the tanks. Dying is not a benefit, and Dark Mind is not a great cooldown, let's be real.

PLD is the tank with some nice range and really fun burst, GNB is the gas gas fast combo action tank, WAR is the slow man mode tank, DRK is the tank that needs help. DT didn't change the self sustain despite people complaining for months, I'd rather see the topic move on. Nerfing WAR isn't going to make other jobs automatically better, it's just going to make WAR's unhappy.

[Terhix]

(...) As a main sentiment though, SE are known to buff more than nerf, just look at the recent patch notes alone despite how many people figured Pictomancer was going to get nerfed. (...)

Yes, and it has lead to the most lenient DPS check in a Savage tier in recent history.

The problem isn't that Bloodwhetting is just stronger than other tank oGCDs in aoe situations, the problem is that it's so absurdly stronger that you can't even bring other tanks to the same level without breaking balance elsewhere unless you give all tanks multi-target scaling. As of today the only other tank that has multi-target scaling is DRK with Abyssal Drain (which is 5.2% HPS of Bloodwhetting) and Living Dead (which has healing capped at 100% HP). It's fine if Warrior is the strongest dungeon tank, someone has to be, but it shouldn't be wild to ask for its abilities to exist within the same order of magintude as the other tanks.

[MikoRemi]

Yes, and it has lead to the most lenient DPS check in a Savage tier in recent history.

The problem isn't that Bloodwhetting is just stronger than other tank oGCDs in aoe situations, the problem is that it's so absurdly stronger that you can't even bring other tanks to the same level without breaking balance elsewhere unless you give all tanks multi-target scaling. As of today the only other tank that has multi-target scaling is DRK with Abyssal Drain (which is 5.2% HPS of Bloodwhetting) and Living Dead (which has healing capped at 100% HP). It's fine if Warrior is the strongest dungeon tank, someone has to be, but it shouldn't be wild to ask for its abilities to exist within the same order of magintude as the other tanks.

It's also the first tier which consistently also has a more lenient DPS check than other tiers in the expansion to get people ready for what's to come. We also have some pretty strong jobs in the lineup and the balance isn't so terrible right now where tanks are 10% apart from each other in DPS. Good job not looking at other factors though.

Oh no normal dungeon content or the very rare adds in other content, the horror. Meanwhile it's quite handy in EX2 especially during congalines where everything hits pretty hard, and also helps the healers not have to snapshot a benediction when I'm invulning both TB"s so I don't die to the coming auto, or EX1 with most things going on in general. PLD is pretty fine, it does have a tough time staying up without Holy Sheltron though for my liking, GNB can do pretty nasty stuff in bosses with HOC but it's also the gas gas high dps tank and if anything I'd rather Superbolide give the invuln first then push HP to 1 instead of the other way around, that was a real fun moment to see during a Temple of the Fist run due to a bad tick which just should not happen, and DRK really could use more self sustain, they used to have a good amount back in SB. Granted it took DA spam to achieve it but there's ways to fix it without hurting WAR.

If Bloodwhetting was such a problem it would've been changed and Bloodbath would also be changed. Except it didn't. Try another avenue, it gets sad to see after awhile.

[Terhix]

It's also the first tier which consistently also has a more lenient DPS check than other tiers in the expansion to get people ready for what's to come.

This isn't my opinion. That the DPS check is more lenient than intended is the official position of SE, and the fact that job balance was done after content was locked in was cited as the cause.

We also have some pretty strong jobs in the lineup and the balance isn't so terrible right now where tanks are 10% apart from each other in DPS. Good job not looking at other factors though.

Going by aDPS tanks are even closer to each other than that, so yes they did a good job on a patch that mostly just tunes potencies to things. I fail to see how that "other factor" makes Bloowhetting better or worse?

Oh no normal dungeon content or the very rare adds in other content, the horror. Meanwhile it's quite handy in EX2 especially during congalines where everything hits pretty hard, and also helps the healers not have to snapshot a benediction when I'm invulning both TB"s so I don't die to the coming auto, or EX1 with most things going on in general. PLD is pretty fine, it does have a tough time staying up without Holy Sheltron though for my liking, GNB can do pretty nasty stuff in bosses with HOC but it's also the gas gas high dps tank and if anything I'd rather Superbolide give the invuln first then push HP to 1 instead of the other way around, that was a real fun moment to see during a Temple of the Fist run due to a bad tick which just should not happen, and DRK really could use more self sustain, they used to have a good amount back in SB. Granted it took DA spam to achieve it but there's ways to fix it without hurting WAR.

??? Nobody is asking for a potency nerf to the heal or anything that would affect WAR in EX or Savage. All the suggestions revolve around capping the number of heals per GCD, or having diminishing returns per target, or having it just heal 400p for first target hit and a little bit extra for all other targets, none of which affect WAR in any content that doesn't include AoE.

If Bloodwhetting was such a problem it would've been changed and Bloodbath would also be changed. Except it didn't. Try another avenue, it gets sad to see after awhile.

All melee dps jobs have Bloodbath, only one tank has Bloodwhetting.

[MikoRemi]

This isn't my opinion. That the DPS check is more lenient than intended is the official position of SE, and the fact that job balance was done after content was locked in was cited as the cause.



Going by aDPS tanks are even closer to each other than that, so yes they did a good job on a patch that mostly just tunes potencies to things. I fail to see how that "other factor" makes Bloowhetting better or worse?



??? Nobody is asking for a potency nerf to the heal or anything that would affect WAR in EX or Savage. All the suggestions revolve around capping the number of heaps per GCD, or having diminishing returns per target, or having it just heal 400p for first target hit and a little bit extra for all other targets, none of which affect WAR in any content that doesn't include AoE.

Literally read the first paragraph about the first tiers always being the easiest in terms of DPS checks. I literally just explained how it's not even an issue, it's just how it's been for years. Doesn't change how general PF's still have a hard time clearing it either, fun fact by the way.

Bloodwhetting is a tool, very lovely in dungeons, otherwise it's not the broken boogeyman everyone makes it out to be. Meanwhile the balance back in EW was actually a problem to the point where the P8S incident happened. The kind of thing that shouldn't happen, and thankfully other than Gordias, it hasn't but THAT was an actual balance problem.

Oh a ton of people ask for multiple things. Nerfing the potency, nerfing the cap, diminishing targets, including even just removing it outright on every job because "healers job man". Meanwhile, none of that is happening, there's no actual reason for it. Don't fix what isn't broken. If I can solo heal with 7 DPS in extreme onwards without any of them being RDM/SMN, then you can tell me how it's "Diablo 3 balance" as you loved to bring up.

For an actual reasonable discussion, talk more about how an actual problem like the state of DRK. Dark Missionary should come at lvl 70 instead of 76. How Dark Mind can mitigate all damage. Decouple C&S from AD because that's just been weird. TBN at least needs to remove MP cost but maybe extra cooldown to compensate so it's just a usable tool, and give 5 stacks of BW to Delerium so you can actually have normal mana gain since that got ripped out unfortunately. Don't have to touch any other job at all whatsoever, DRK would already be much more fun to play because it'd be more consistent with the other tanks, and meanwhile everyone else that's having fun can remain having fun. Do something more like that, or have a repeat of the opening of DT where somehow everyone was in shock that the self sustain only got better.

Shoot if I could suggest something for BW/RI, I'd rather it come at lvl 30 with TOB so I can actually be a WAR in 50 or lower content. However I actually don't expect that to happen though, and I'm fine with what I got now, so not sweating about it~.

[Terhix]

Bloodwhetting is a tool, very lovely in dungeons, otherwise it's not the broken boogeyman everyone makes it out to be.

And so we once again arrive at the same weak excuse over and over again: "it doesn't matter because it's dungeons".

For an actual reasonable discussion, talk more about how an actual problem like the state of DRK.

There is like 20 threads about the state of DRK already, and I've given my feedback were appropriate.

[MikoRemi]

And so we once again arrive at the same weak excuse over and over again: "it doesn't matter because it's dungeons".



There is like 20 threads about the state of DRK already, and I've given my feedback were appropriate.

Cope harder, it's a proper response no matter how much you hate to hear it. Maybe wonder how it hasn't gotten changed despite that "excuse" being so "weak".

And you can guess why that is, maybe because it's an actual problem. If you've already done so, find another actual problem to deal with. Because with this clutter taking up space instead, it's only going to make it take that much longer.

You do you though~. I already called it months before DT arrived, and right now I'm just expecting my gap closer to get changed to DRK/GNB style, which will be great to have actual utility be utility. We already went through Low Blow having potency a long time ago, we can do that with the rest of the gap closers.

[Terhix]

Cope harder, it's a proper response no matter how much you hate to hear it. Maybe wonder how it hasn't gotten changed despite that "excuse" being so "weak".

I have wondered about it and it's baffling to me how scared SE is to upset WAR mains about such an obvious thing. That said, I have to say, I do at least appreciate your honesty here.

[CKNovel]

Imagine wanting to remove fun stuff from a video game, some people are truly baffling.

In a game mode that would be cleared with or without the fun stuff.
To balance a crazy but harmless healing.
Just to save the ego of the poor healers who have 20 buttons for healing but only press 4 of them so they can press 5 buttons instead.

This sums up the whole thread, no one here is trying to balance the game by nerfing WAR, just trying to soothe the healer ego.
But instead put their hands on their ear and scream "LALALA BUT LOOK AT WAR TOPPING ITSELF" despite showing data of the root problem.

[Ramiee]

Its people saying "Lalala warrior is fine" and people saying "Lalala warrior is op" you're both as bad as each other.