M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

[Bobby66]

Wow... it's almost like healers use to have an engaging damage rotation, and they took it away so not as many people enjoy the role lol.

If tanks want to have fun dealing damage they should play dps.

I don't really care that tanks have healing, it's basically the only utility the game can give since they've watered down so many aspects of job design. But they have so much they're invincible even up to extreme content. Most people here are asking that "Hey, maybe the tanks shouldn't be invincible" and your response is asking why you want to take away their fun...

Let tanks be Gods at mitigation, let them stop 90% of all the damage for all I care, but let the hp they do lose be the healers' job.

My response is hey maybe don't take parts that have drove many new players to the role such as the relative higher DPS for effort, and the forgivable nature the role provides.

As stated I am fine with sustain nerfs, I would even go further and make it so no other role beside healers can rez or if they give another role a rez it is on a 10 min CD while in combat.

Issue is as someone that lost their favorite playstyle with old smn I am also mindful of how removing certain elements can really hurt ones personal enjoyment so I being mindful of that.

I do not trust SE to remove elements of play and replace it with something equal.

Just being able to eat vuln stacks and trivialize entire encounters goes beyond "forgiving".

I mean God's forgive no? Bad joke.

Maybe other's are fine with the removal of stuff and have faith SE will add more or do more with the extra design space. If we are being honest has SE actually delivered on that claim for any job they removed something from?

[localareanetwork]

savage is just designed for mitigation anyway, i don't think you've had to gcd heal anything since p8s. this particular raid tier just had like no body checks or mechanics that targeted healers repeatedly like the other ones did.

[Turtledeluxe]

My response is hey maybe don't take parts that have drove many new players to the role such as the relative higher DPS for effort, and the forgivable nature the role provides.

Just being able to eat vuln stacks and trivialize entire encounters goes beyond "forgiving".

[Mcg55ss]

better question who cares?? Yea a group of players that are highly skilled found a way to meet the healing requirements without healers do you think the average static or pf would even be close to being able to pull this off. Its just people doing stuff for fun to test their limitations which is cool to watch but VAST majority of people and groups couldn't even accomplish this in their wildest dreams so idk why people care so much.

[Bobby66]

better question who cares?? Yea a group of players that are highly skilled found a way to meet the healing requirements without healers do you think the average static or pf would even be close to being able to pull this off. Its just people doing stuff for fun to test their limitations which is cool to watch but VAST majority of people and groups couldn't even accomplish this in their wildest dreams so idk why people care so much.

From what I understand the issue is removal of a role should not be faster or on par with a standard comp.

[Stabegabe]

better question who cares?? Yea a group of players that are highly skilled found a way to meet the healing requirements without healers do you think the average static or pf would even be close to being able to pull this off. Its just people doing stuff for fun to test their limitations which is cool to watch but VAST majority of people and groups couldn't even accomplish this in their wildest dreams so idk why people care so much.

After watching the video no I don't really actually think it is that hard, people just don't realize how easy it actually is and don't bother trying to go off meta. I feel like I can list 100 reasons why but I will keep it kinda concise why I think this is true:

-They had minimal clemency casts and the casts they did do were during downtime anyways where it cost them absolutely 0 dps. The bar for healing is so low that it's possible to hardly even need direct healing from gcds. Without a healer.

-It was week 2, and they weren't fully geared. More room for error in the coming weeks will only make this easier to pull off.

-The only actual "cheese" or workaround they really had to figure out was the cover strat to bypass having to use tank LB3, but this isn't actually even hard to pull off anyways. I mean you're just throwing cover on a pre-assigned person as an alternative. Everything else in the fight is literally playing out the same as it normally would.

-They spreadsheeted mit. That's it. Tons of people do this, and expect it, on a regular basis in savage and ultimate anyways. All a healerless run does at best is somewhat amplify the strictness of mit usage. Spreadsheet it. Problem solved.

So please enlighten me on why this is so hard to actually pull off, because nothing stands out as extremely difficult. What is the crazy stunt they pulled that makes this seem egregiously harder than just... A regular clear of m4s in a coordinated group environment, with moderately stricter mit checks and having to press cover once instead of lb3 once?

I think if more people actually tried a healerless run in the first place it would be quite apparent how many of them are actually more than capable of doing it very easily. I guess my biggest question though is why you think it's okay for it to even be possible to clear fresh high-end content while undergeared, without a healer present. Should it even be possible to clear high-end content without an entire ROLE present? Like seriously? It's not alarming that a role is so useless that, even in the difficult content, they fail to justify a NECESSITY for it in any way?

[Bobby66]

As an old Hpal healer back in WoW. Low key the idea of being a main healer is a pld is awesome and I would 100% be down to try it.

[Ishe-P]

Trying to riff healers is the most FF thing that's been an FF thing since FF1. I'm not exactly sure why folks are surprised. If you could figure out a comp that works without, say, a white mage, you'd do it too, and don't try to deny that you wouldn't.

[Aravell]

The main issue with this happening is that it's more optimal and not even more dangerous despite not having a healer, as long as everyone follows the mitigation spreadsheet to the letter.

No healer runs have been happening since ARR, this is true. But no healer runs back then were actual challenge runs, it wasn't easy and it was much slower than a regular comp run.

But after EW (and ShB, to a lesser extent), it became optimal to just drop the healer entirely, because it ends up being not anymore dangerous than normal and it's also a faster clear.

Healers right now are the worst in damage output, so if the extra healing power gained from bringing one isn't even needed, then healers are just worthless. One entire role being completely worthless as anything except safety insurance is extremely bad trinity design.

[Silver-Strider]

The main issue with this happening is that it's more optimal and not even more dangerous despite not having a healer, as long as everyone follows the mitigation spreadsheet to the letter.

No healer runs have been happening since ARR, this is true. But no healer runs back then were actual challenge runs, it wasn't easy and it was much slower than a regular comp run.

But after EW (and ShB, to a lesser extent), it became optimal to just drop the healer entirely, because it ends up being not anymore dangerous than normal and it's also a faster clear.

Healers right now are the worst in damage output, so if the extra healing power gained from bringing one isn't even needed, then healers are just worthless. One entire role being completely worthless as anything except safety insurance is extremely bad trinity design.

There was also the fact that Healers used to do way more damage back then too, doing more than Tanks most of the time since the bulk of Healer damage back then was from DoTs.