M4S has officially been beaten without healers in week 2

[Striker44]

What is there to discuss? There will always be top-tier players able to do things that the overwhelming majority of the playerbase have no chance at doing. It's happened in practically every game to ever exist. FF1 *has* been beaten with a party of only white mages (heck, it's been beaten with a *solo* white mage). FF9 has been beaten with all characters still at Level 1. There's an entire community dedicated to "speedrunning" games. Those feats are all impressive. They also mean absolutely nothing when it comes to the "design" of the game itself, because they're nowhere near the typical experience of normal players.

In a case like this, throw a DF group together into M4S (or any of the Arcadion fights) without a healer and watch what happens. What the "elite" can do isn't even worth discussing outside of a "congratulations to them."

[WaxSw]

-elite players

-PF too stupid to do this

-can you do it

(/s just for safety)

What is there to discuss? There will always be top-tier players able to do things that the overwhelming majority of the playerbase have no chance at doing. It's happened in practically every game to ever exist. FF1 *has* been beaten with a party of only white mages (heck, it's been beaten with a *solo* white mage). FF9 has been beaten with all characters still at Level 1. There's an entire community dedicated to "speedrunning" games. Those feats are all impressive. They also mean absolutely nothing when it comes to the "design" of the game itself, because they're nowhere near the typical experience of normal players.

In a case like this, throw a DF group together into M4S (or any of the Arcadion fights) without a healer and watch what happens. What the "elite" can do isn't even worth discussing outside of a "congratulations to them."

SE white knights remain as predictable as usual.


As a side not imagine comparing the balance and self imposed challenge of a single player game and think its a valid example to justifiy the glaring issues of a multiplayer one

[Striker44]

SE white knights remain as predictable as usual.

This...is just a sad cop-out that says you know you can't actually refute the point being made.

As a side not imagine comparing the balance and self imposed challenge of a single player game and think its a valid example to justifiy the glaring issues of a multiplayer one

Is this just having no idea what's going on, or intentionally "missing" the point and setting up a false argument because you can't refute the real one? I could just as well have pointed to people who pull off "Ironman" challenges in MMO's, heck there's a guy who played WoW Classic and successfully wall-to-wall pulled Maraudon (one of the longer dungeons in the game that doesn't have the artificial "walls" seen in FFXIV dungeons) while playing solo with no gear. The simple point is there will always be highly skilled players in any game who find ways to challenge themselves and accomplish things that 99.9% of those playing the game will never do. It doesn't matter what kind of game, solo or group content, whatever.

You're also starting with a false premise in talking about "glaring issues", which inevitably leads to a false conclusion. I could just as easily (and more accurately) say "Imagine taking what a select group of elite players can do and thinking it's a valid example to justify fundamentally changing the game for everyone else (who has no shot at pulling that off)."

This used to be my exact mentality, but at this point it's happened with too many different fights, not to mention only on week 2.

The "week 2" thing isn't really relevant anymore, because it might be "week 2" of that particular raid, but the people raiding it likely have years of experience. For a good comparison, look at "world first" clears of Heroic/Mythic raids in WoW over time. It went from taking 2-4 months for world-first clears in WoW's early days to consistently under 2 weeks in later expansions. It's even more staggering if you compare kill times in the earlier days of Retail WoW with the same bosses in Classic WoW, where it went from taking months to most clears happening *on release day* (or a day later at worst). The players doing these top-tier things have mastered the game itself - you're going to see things like this with any fight in a relatively short time no matter what happens. It still doesn't mean anything for what the vast majority of the playerbase actually experiences.