We cannot achieve balance while DPS jobs have utilities

[Lyth]

People have fun with different things though. Even at its most fun, BLM was still pretty low on the player count. Compared to (imo) the least fun job in the game SMN getting a huge amount of players.

PCT has probably has had an even bigger impact on SMN. In Endwalker, SMN was the most played DPS. Now it's the second least played Magical Ranged job in raid content (fourth from the bottom overall). PCT is pretty much a direct upgrade if you don't need the extra Raise.

I think that's the crux of the utility/dps problem. You need parity on both, ideally independently of each other. Otherwise one job just ends up dominating.

[Saraide]

I find it kinda funny how OP says they'll take a dps job with utility all day but their main is listed as blackmage.

[Tunda]

snip

I disagree..
rDPS is the most important calculation method if you want to see if job performance,

I would love to play job has higher rDPS than other jobs it is better for party and kill

Who decide if it is hard work or not? What if it is not?

You are not in place of developers to judge, it is ok to have opinions in this form even u don't agree with,
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regarding party composition:

If you look at fastest 5 clears for this savage you will notice something: All parties dps are supports!! why ?

because support is too OP doing 2 things at once: PCT, RDM, SMN, NIN, BRD, exc
Why warrior too? shake it off
Why Astro? card system

it clearly an issue that we see more pure jobs will suffer from utility jobs

2/2/2/2 maybe isn't good but we could see 4 dps / 2 support / 2 healer / 2 tank, I dont know what is better but I know that selfish DPS is suffering from utility jobs that do less 2% of their damage

[Tunda]

I find it kinda funny how OP says they'll take a dps job with utility all day but their main is listed as blackmage.

Saying the truth is important,

first 10 clears for savage there is no BLM and few VPR and SAM
Other jobs appearing because there are utility jobs (supports) who do less 2% of selfish jobs which is crazy

[Saraide]

Saying the truth is important,

first 10 clears for savage there is no BLM and few VPR and SAM
Other jobs appearing because there are utility jobs (supports) who do less 2% of selfish jobs which is crazy

What group utility do dragoon or ninja bring to the table? Just their damage buffs? That's not utility, that's just how they contribute a part of their damage. Picto is a mainstay in all early groups but not because of its utility. The group shield is nice and all but not why it was chosen in such numbers.

I would also question why this is relevant to you in the first place. Are you a world first raider?

[Lyth]

I think it's both reasonable and essential for players to stay informed about what's happening on a world prog level even if they're not currently involved with it. Even as a mere humble PF enjoyer, you'd find that a lot of those decisions will end up influencing community attitudes towards various jobs in the long run, especially when frustration sets in from repeatedly hitting an enrage after progging through various groups. You can argue that everything is clearable with any comp, but that's not going to stop people for being selective to maximize their chances of success. Double caster did see a lot of use this tier. You could prog a fight as double raise caster to learn the mechanics and then swap out your SMN for PCT for the clear. This was an option previously as well, but I think there were historically a lot fewer skilled BLM players than there currently are skilled PCT players.

Raid damage buffs are covered under rDPS, so I wouldn't categorize them as utility, and you'll probably confuse a lot of people if you do. People tend to muddy the discussion by discussing various other parameters that attempt to represent burst under different circumstances, but they're not entirely accurate. I think P8SP2 did a pretty good job of illustrating this last expansion with Everburn, because the jobs that pulled ahead most certainly were 'burst jobs', but I don't think any of the metrics on the other fights predicted this very well. I think a job like PCT would absolutely dominate under such conditions with alternating downtime and burst.

PCT itself has incredible mobility (nearly 50% sprint uptime), a raidwide shield that has more value than DRK/GNB's job specific raidwide defensives on two fights (had to be brought up, sorry), and a raid heal built into its rotation. It also allows you to optimize on the fly rather than having to plan your movements in advance. This job replaces BLM. The only thing that keeps other Ranged jobs relevant in comparison is a 1% damage buff on Physical Ranged, and access to Raise on the other two casters (and you can be a SMN/PCT main if you like to cover that basis). That's likely why the SMN usage rates are so low as well, because they just get their clear on PCT instead.

Given that the balance has been disrupted, it's probably worthwhile asking questions about what forms of utility and how much damage the various Ranged jobs should bring to the table so that they can all provide unique value.

[Tunda]

I think it's both reasonable and essential for players to stay informed about what's happening on a world prog level even if they're not currently involved with it. Even as a mere humble PF enjoyer, you'd find that a lot of those decisions will end up influencing community attitudes towards various jobs in the long run, especially when frustration sets in from repeatedly hitting an enrage after progging through various groups. You can argue that everything is clearable with any comp, but that's not going to stop people for being selective to maximize their chances of success. Double caster did see a lot of use this tier. You could prog a fight as double raise caster to learn the mechanics and then swap out your SMN for PCT for the clear. This was an option previously as well, but I think there were historically a lot fewer skilled BLM players than there currently are skilled PCT players.

Raid damage buffs are covered under rDPS, so I wouldn't categorize them as utility, and you'll probably confuse a lot of people if you do. People tend to muddy the discussion by discussing various other parameters that attempt to represent burst under different circumstances, but they're not entirely accurate. I think P8SP2 did a pretty good job of illustrating this last expansion with Everburn, because the jobs that pulled ahead most certainly were 'burst jobs', but I don't think any of the metrics on the other fights predicted this very well. I think a job like PCT would absolutely dominate under such conditions with alternating downtime and burst.

PCT itself has incredible mobility (nearly 50% sprint uptime), a raidwide shield that has more value than DRK/GNB's job specific raidwide defensives on two fights (had to be brought up, sorry), and a raid heal built into its rotation. It also allows you to optimize on the fly rather than having to plan your movements in advance. This job replaces BLM. The only thing that keeps other Ranged jobs relevant in comparison is a 1% damage buff on Physical Ranged, and access to Raise on the other two casters (and you can be a SMN/PCT main if you like to cover that basis). That's likely why the SMN usage rates are so low as well, because they just get their clear on PCT instead.

Given that the balance has been disrupted, it's probably worthwhile asking questions about what forms of utility and how much damage the various Ranged jobs should bring to the table so that they can all provide unique value.

I agree, not only black mage who is suffering, VPR and SAM too
SAM replaced by RPR and MNK
VPR is new so everyone playing it but it can be replaced by MNK and RPR
BLM can be replaced by PCT with more burst and utility + heals


giving selfish DPS utility will not only break the identity but it will move DPS jobs more into homogenization, it is not only boring but also less alignment for buffs when someone die if it is 1 or 2 people duty it will be more stable

[Lyth]

I don't think this is an issue for melee, because the role is just there to provide damage and nothing else. Any combination of two melee is going to be fairly robust and is largely interchangeable. It's just the PCT slot that's essential.

[Shurrikhan]

I disagree..
rDPS is the most important calculation method if you want to see if job performance

There is no single metric by which to account for the performance of any job that brings part of its contribution through buffing its raid. There is a single metric from which we can, over enough parses across varying contributions when those compositions are roughly balanced already, compare the performance of jobs who do not do so, but it isn't rDPS.

For every buff by which someone contributes varyingly towards the rest of the party, there are also varying degrees to which other jobs exploit that buff and therefore give the buffer their rDPS. Because of this, to know how much, say, a Dancer, can maximally bring, we need also to compare the raw damage of its potential dance partners under roughly the same conditions, or aDPS across a number of parses large enough to be less dependent on the specific composition.

While that number needed can then be quite large, exactly the same can be said of rDPS. But while rDPS necessarily and badly misrepresents the value of every job without a buff, it still doesn't correctly represent the value even of those who give more value via their buffs than they receive from others' buffs.

You use both. Both aDPS and rDPS, while also slightly mindful of the gap between aDPS and raw DPS of single-target buff recipients when considering the actual value of said buffers or their buffs best users in a composition with those buffers.

I would love to play job has higher rDPS than other jobs it is better for party and kill

Which, given that you seem to think rDPS just clearly and cleanly means "amount of value", was my point. People tend to whatever produces the best value for the amount of effort they're willing to put in, regardless of whether it has more or fewer support actions or a greater or lesser portion of its value wrapped up in said support.

If you look at fastest 5 clears for this savage you will notice something: All parties dps are supports!! why ?

Let's say we consider jobs that provide far more value by exploiting others' buffs than by giving out their own as "support" any time they give out at least one damage buff or carry at least one emergency external tool like a resurrection skill, such that there are only 3 non-support DPS in the whole game (SAM, VPR, BLM)...
...Even then, your claim is objectively incorrect.

Black Cat: MNK, SAM, BRD, PIC; SAM, VPR, DNC, PIC; MNK, SAM, DNC, PIC; NIN, SAM, DNC, PIC
B. Lovely: RPR, VPR, DNC, PIC; MNK, SAM, DNC, PIC; MNK, SAM, DNC, BLM; MNK, SAM, BRD, PIC; SAM, RPR, DNC, PIC

Across the top 9 for Brute Bomber, we see a SAM and/or VPR in each party, with an "all support" party (RPR, MNK, BRD, PIC) not appearing until place #10.
The only one to have an "all support" comp in the top 8 at time of writing --and at great stretch of the term "support"-- is M4 (again with MNK, RPR, BRD, PIC).
_____________________

No, really, go and look at the actual data. In doing so, you might even find a much larger takeaway worth noting: that PIC was used in 31 of 40 fastest runs across the game. Compare that to VPR's 22 of 40 despite being equally OP relative to its role (but that role being bigger) and similarly and new job... and you'll start to see what kinds of job push-outs are actually happening, such as PIC just being a straight better BLM 99% of the time. (VPR, btw, similarly pushes out NIN --and to a lesser extent RPR, DRG, and nearly MNK-- for simply sharing a gear class with NIN but being far superior to it.)

it clearly an issue that we see more pure jobs will suffer from utility jobs

No, they suffer when they generate less party value (especially, per party effort invested) -- i.e., when they're undertuned. But that's it. The mere existence of support jobs does not push out non-support jobs. Being undertuned pushes out jobs. In general. Regardless of portion of indirect contribution. Regardless of degree of support tools.

Requiring but capping "support" jobs helps nothing outside of increasing queue times for those who can only make themselves do work while waiting on a duty to pop. Which, to be clear, is generally bad for the rest of us.

Saying the truth is important,

first 10 clears for savage there is no BLM and few VPR and SAM
Other jobs appearing because there are utility jobs (supports) who do less 2% of selfish jobs which is crazy

If by "first" you mean "first to clear":

"No BLM": BLM parties were the third to clear M1S, fourth to clear M2S, first to clear M4S, lagging behind (swapping briefly to PIC, most likely) only on M3S (32nd clear).

"Few VPR and SAM": In the third clear, and in roughly half of first 20 clears thereafter of M1S. 6th clear, and in roughly half the top 20 thereafter of M2S. Second clear of M3S, third clear of M4S, etc. VPR, especially is slightly overrepresented even in early clears.
______________________

If by "first" you mean "nearest first place (in speed)":

"No BLM": At time of writing, there is a BLM in the top 7 of M1S, top 3 of M2S, top 6 of M3S, and top 5 of M4S. There are 7 BLMs overall, making up 7 of 9 non-PIC caster choices in the top 10s of each run (40 runs total).

"Few VPR and SAM": VPR is in 22 of 40 top-10s across M1S-M4S. SAM is in 14 of 40. In a random distribution assuming 2 melee DPS per raid, we'd have expected to see 13 of each. Both SAM and VPR are represented in the top runs far more often than more supportive Melee jobs like DRG (6) or NIN (5).

Seriously, look at the data before making claims on it.

[kajv95]

Idk how to best phrase it but while the game is in 2min meta mode, it's never gonna get better. As hard as it is to swallow, as long as "any comp can clear" without any real synergies between jobs, they can only ever be different flavours of the same thing. Buffs are only allowed to make one job as strong as the strongest job can be without them in this setting after all, or the entire thing crumbles.

You make bards stronger support again, that deletes mch. You make mch the strongest because they don't have support, that deleted brd and DNC.

Its been a problem since I started playing (end-hw) and the changes to delete meta parties in shb never made it better, only different.

There will always be a "single best party" composition, there's no getting around that. Luckily most people don't care, and the way it would be right now would be mostly fine if it weren't for some weird arbitrary damage differences within roles (caster raise is flavor mostly; the damage difference is self-contradictory)

If parties accept me as a summoner, they'll accept you as a black mage. Unless you're trying to go for WF, but by that point you should be ready to job swap at any point anyway.