Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

[Mawlzy]

Then you should know that you can actually stop many of those stacks running a single DRK on WAR, however I don't see you directly counter-playing them and just complaining instead. I'm really not sure what the point of this is since a lot of what you've said boils down to you not getting to play the way you want to, and what looks like a desire to punish others who play differently out of spite. Just as you get to play how you want, so do others and if they choose to play in a manner that increases both their own and their team's chances of winning, then more power to them. Either way at the end of the day, the rest of your team and especially your opponents all get a say, and what your opponents want to do can and will affect how you can play because thats just how pvp in any game works.

How am I punishing others who want to play differently? You don't see me directly counter-playing them? When do you see me at all?

Currently I do not get to play how I want when I'm stuck on the same team as a premade, but I make do. I understand that is the nature of group content. I try my best to help my team win. I got landed with Senpai the other day and dutifully turned in a 9/0/36, following the same boring deathball.

And I agree completely that people should get to play how they want within the current rule set. My point is 70% premade win-rates are not healthy for the mode, thus I think changes to the rule set are in order. I think premades may actually function reasonably if we had the tier separation I've suggested, but they seem strangely reluctant to support the proposal.

FWIW I know I am disliked by many in the Discord Mafia, and that is fine, but I also enjoy many fruitful discussions via DM with players, many of whom regularly command. There are such players who want to understand my position and explain theirs to me, and I have learned a lot from such exchanges. Just this week I had a wide-ranging chat on everything from our opinions on Olivia's guide, the older one written by Togane, strategic exploits on Seal Rock, and non-standard/situational WAR burst rotations.

I keep getting this accusation that I am complaining because I don't know how to counter a DRK+ stack. I know I go on a lot and am critical of the current state of the game, but please castigate me for what I actually say, not what you'd like to believe I say/think/feel/want.

[Iglol]

How am I punishing others who want to play differently? You don't see me directly counter-playing them? When do you see me at all?

Currently I do not get to play how I want when I'm stuck on the same team as a premade, but I make do. I understand that is the nature of group content. I try my best to help my team win. I got landed with Senpai the other day and dutifully turned in a 9/0/36, following the same boring deathball.

And I agree completely that people should get to play how they want within the current rule set. My point is 70% premade win-rates are not healthy for the mode, thus I think changes to the rule set are in order. I think premades may actually function reasonably if we had the tier separation I've suggested, but they seem strangely reluctant to support the proposal.

FWIW I know I am disliked by many in the Discord Mafia, and that is fine, but I also enjoy many fruitful discussions via DM with players, many of whom regularly command. There are such players who want to understand my position and explain theirs to me, and I have learned a lot from such exchanges. Just this week I had a wide-ranging chat on everything from our opinions on Olivia's guide, the older one written by Togane, strategic exploits on Seal Rock, and non-standard/situational WAR burst rotations.

I keep getting this accusation that I am complaining because I don't know how to counter a DRK+ stack. I know I go on a lot and am critical of the current state of the game, but please castigate me for what I actually say, not what you'd like to believe I say/think/feel/want.

I say you want to punish it because of stances you've taken when you've supported things such as removing grouping, giving groups 25% rewards, you name it. "70% win rate premades" are counterable with 1-2 people and the issue really is a skill one more than anything. The biggest issue with the mode is that there are always a large number of players doing next to nothing, the bare minimum for a daily bonus or for collecting pvp currencies and progress. They are the ones that make 4 man stacks viable because they provide a constant stream of easy targets to farm and don't really help their team accomplish much of anything in the grand scheme of things, that is the crux of the issue right there.

People say you don't know how to counter DRK stacks because thats exactly what you say the issue is, and people who know how to fight it don't think of it as the biggest issue of the mode. And what even is this Discord Mafia you're going on about? Who the heck is acting like an organized crime network?

[Mawlzy]

I say you want to punish it because of stances you've taken when you've supported things such as removing grouping, giving groups 25% rewards, you name it. "70% win rate premades" are counterable with 1-2 people and the issue really is a skill one more than anything. The biggest issue with the mode is that there are always a large number of players doing next to nothing, the bare minimum for a daily bonus or for collecting pvp currencies and progress. They are the ones that make 4 man stacks viable because they provide a constant stream of easy targets to farm and don't really help their team accomplish much of anything in the grand scheme of things, that is the crux of the issue right there.

People say you don't know how to counter DRK stacks because thats exactly what you say the issue is, and people who know how to fight it don't think of it as the biggest issue of the mode. And what even is this Discord Mafia you're going on about? Who the heck is acting like an organized crime network?

I keep emphasizing playing with not against DRK stacks is what is so tedious. And since in practice you never actually see these 1-2 FL savants countering them (that's you and who else, btw?), we get dull, lopsided matches.

That said, I agree the massively-inflated premade win-rates are largely a skill issue. A typical NA match dominated by rouletters is a feeding ground for such a stack. Hence the idea of placing the more-skilled players in the same matches.

My suggestions evolve as I receive more information. I pay attention to what others say and assess it. That's how productive discussions work. In response I get this steady stream of first-time posters telling what my real problem is, and what I need to understand, and how I should try and improve (like that never occurred to me), along with a bunch of weirdos making cat noises.

[Iglol]

I keep emphasizing playing with not against DRK stacks is what is so tedious. And since in practice you never actually see these 1-2 FL savants countering them (that's you and who else, btw?), we get dull, lopsided matches.

That said, I agree the massively-inflated premade win-rates are largely a skill issue. A typical NA match dominated by rouletters is a feeding ground for such a stack. Hence the idea of placing the more-skilled players in the same matches.

My suggestions evolve as I receive more information. I pay attention to what others say and assess it. That's how productive discussions work. In response I get this steady stream of first-time posters telling what my real problem is, and what I need to understand, and how I should try and improve (like that never occurred to me), along with a bunch of weirdos making cat noises.

So if your issue is playing with premades, what of the fact that a team bursting and moving together is good for them in the current system, so a team having someone to help lead and signal works to their advantage? Are you also against a solo commander leading the team then? Its effectively about the same thing if people in the alliance coordinate with them. What of a premade not doing calls and just marking a DRK and going with it, or a random grouping of good players who do the same on their own and function close to a stack? Whats actually wrong with people doing some ad-hoc coordination? Also its not some FL savant thing to be able to do an interception counterpull, its just a skill increasingly lost and neglected with the current regular players and new commanders.

So your solution is to create a tiering system in a casual game mode? The high tier matches will never fill for dailies, and the low tier queues will be packed with people never wanting to learn. A tiering system would exacerbate the very core issue plaguing both PVE and PVP by lowering the bar and setting no expectations for most people. Hell, are you going to introduce tiering into Rival Wings as well? The same lopsided matches occur there if you get a strong group and/or commander on one team. Why not address the root of the issue instead and promote better play as a whole?

[Mawlzy]

So if your issue is playing with premades, what of the fact that a team bursting and moving together is good for them in the current system, so a team having someone to help lead and signal works to their advantage? Are you also against a solo commander leading the team then? Its effectively about the same thing if people in the alliance coordinate with them. What of a premade not doing calls and just marking a DRK and going with it, or a random grouping of good players who do the same on their own and function close to a stack? Whats actually wrong with people doing some ad-hoc coordination? Also its not some FL savant thing to be able to do an interception counterpull, its just a skill increasingly lost and neglected with the current regular players and new commanders.

So your solution is to create a tiering system in a casual game mode? The high tier matches will never fill for dailies, and the low tier queues will be packed with people never wanting to learn. A tiering system would exacerbate the very core issue plaguing both PVE and PVP by lowering the bar and setting no expectations for most people. Hell, are you going to introduce tiering into Rival Wings as well? The same lopsided matches occur there if you get a strong group and/or commander on one team. Why not address the root of the issue instead and promote better play as a whole?

Make a training video so that this neglected skill can be resurrected. You'll be raising the skill level of interested players and doing a great public service.

You tweak the tier boundaries to ensure all fill. (RW is off-topic. Focus, Namazu, c'mon man.)

My suggestion to "address the root of the issue" is to greatly reduce XP and other rewards. It proved as popular as a rattlesnake in a lucky dip. Do you have a better solution? Answering "Olivia's guide" will cause a loud buzzer to go off and a flashing red X. You correctly note the bulk of the people do not want to learn. Such people do not read guides.

[Iglol]

Make a training video so that this neglected skill can be resurrected. You'll be raising the skill level of interested players and doing a great public service.

You tweak the tier boundaries to ensure all fill. (RW is off-topic. Focus, Namazu, c'mon man.)

My suggestion to "address the root of the issue" is to greatly reduce XP and other rewards. It proved as popular as a rattlesnake in a lucky dip. Do you have a better solution? Answering "Olivia's guide" will cause a loud buzzer to go off and a flashing red X. You correctly note the bulk of the people do not want to learn. Such people do not read guides.

Greatly reducing exp would then start gutting the population as well as remove incentive to at least keep queueing continuously. The battle pass won't make up for this and will turn FL queues seasonal and now you have another problem.

The tiering solution with changing the boundaries defeats the purpose of tiering. It works in smaller group settings due to the ease of getting enough players to fill teams with people of a similar range of skill. Put it into 3x 24m teams and you have quite a problem because to fill it, you'll have to break enough tier boundaries you might as well not have the tiering at all and we're back to square one. If you want 8v8v8, we'd then have to revamp pvp again, or just play CC if you want smaller group pvp since the big alliance is part of the whole point of FL.

[Mawlzy]

Greatly reducing exp would then start gutting the population as well as remove incentive to at least keep queueing continuously. The battle pass won't make up for this and will turn FL queues seasonal and now you have another problem.

The tiering solution with changing the boundaries defeats the purpose of tiering. It works in smaller group settings due to the ease of getting enough players to fill teams with people of a similar range of skill. Put it into 3x 24m teams and you have quite a problem because to fill it, you'll have to break enough tier boundaries you might as well not have the tiering at all and we're back to square one. If you want 8v8v8, we'd then have to revamp pvp again, or just play CC if you want smaller group pvp since the big alliance is part of the whole point of FL.

You still haven't provided a solution, just ridiculed those of others.

You identify the current problem in FL as a large proportion of people who don't want to be there. You further note they don't want to learn. How do you propose to have high-quality matches if you understandably do not want to play with the AFKers, but refuse to remove/separate them on the grounds it would make queue times too long? At least with low-tier matches, you have the hope that new players might take to the mode, instead of being completely discouraged due to the current destructive power of premades. One might conclude you're happy with the mode as is; a bold position in a 92-page thread with this title.

One reason I am so disturbed by the current meta and the way it is exploited is that it is completely unwelcoming to new players. MMO churn requires new players to get interested in the mode or it dies.

Olivia is trying to address this through training new commanders. I've explained in this thread why I don't think it will work. You have reinforced my position by astutely noting that these new commanders can't even pull off a...er...wossname... interdimensional counterpoint thingy.

One commander I talked to this week did find a solution that worked for them. They moved their PvP action from NA to JP.

I ask you again: how do you promote better play as a whole?

[Aravell]

At this point I just assume commanders in chat are automatically part of a premade (or the general "clique" that people say exists on Discords) and disregard what they say and just do what works for me, it's the only option I have left really to make the mode not feel completely dull or my presence not feel completely pointless.

While I don't share the same opinion on commanders and premades, I do encourage people to learn on their own.

I've had a few certain losses from a commander making a critically bad call turn into victories because I struck out on my own with a small group of other solo players and made the correct call, which delayed the loss long enough for the commander to make the right call for the win.

What I'm saying is that you don't have to be a drone in the murderball to make an impact. Delaying enemies and scouting are also ways to make your own impact.

[OliviaLugria]

Surprised they don't understand your position. You don't like playing with premades on your team. It's mentioned every other post :/

Still... premade win rates are a result of the other 68 people not caring about winning. As I've said before, this isn't a problem on JP because the average player understands basic concepts like: don't get sucked in by a Dark, press guard, attack with the team. The average player on NA dies to the same suction and burst 10 times a match and can't fathom a possible soultuon... not that they care to when they're watching Netflix on their other screen.