Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

[Mawlzy]

Snip.

To touch on a few of your other points.

8-man premades, along with GC synching, were absolutely terrible. That's why both were removed and freelancer introduced. I have no doubt the premade/synching players found it great fun, as they do currently at the expense of the bulk of the player base.

The hostility to a three-tier matchmaking system from advocates of "high-quality matches" is incomprehensible to me. If you want to up the odds of each team having a commander, this is the best path forward.

Instead we get the usual gaslighting, and this claim that the game was designed such that each team is supposed to have a commander. Honestly, this one deserves an award.

Why?

Let us suppose the devs did indeed create the current iteration of FL with the explicit intent that each team should have one commander. With this hypothesis, it is strange (is it not?) that:

1. Nowhere in the SQEX description of the mode is this central fact mentioned.

2. The mode provides no mechanism to ensure this critical design feature can be implemented.

3. Despite the fact this basically never happens on NA/EU DCs, no attempt to correct the issue such that the game is "played as intended" has been made by SQEX for over three years.

I understand why this thread has attracted premade members. If I thought like you do I would be defending my playstyle too. But can we please discuss these issues in good faith instead of this revisionist, fact-free nonsense?

[Mawlzy]

Liking Olivia? In this tread? Think you're in the wrong place sadly.

Olivia, I would hope most of us have the emotional maturity to distinguish liking your guide and liking you.

[Sinstrel]

Really. Source?

If you are hoping I could link you something that officially states this you may be disappointed as SE has notoriously been very hands-off and has historically seemed to prefer the community create the environment they want to play in when it comes to PvP.

That being said though: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...ide/frontline/

Even the official community guide states, in the very beginning, that "Success on the front line will depend heavily not only on individual skill, but on your ability to work as a team."

And what better way to work as a team than this?

Take a look at Frontlines in JP data centers, they have a main commander of the alliance, and 2 sub commanders who shepherd and make sure their 8-man group is following the instructions of the leader, making sure they using the right burst/support/limit break at the right time, etc.

Yoshi P and SE were so impressed by how the community figured this out that even made a special gear set to commemorate such players after some time. It's called the Field Commander's set: https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes...m/4551a07ab65/

So again, I do still agree

Bottom line is this: if you want to win, you need to change and/or improve the way you are playing. Through your own actions, set an example that others want to aspire to. Look for the resources, ask questions, etc.

If there is a better way to play that you or anyone else has found to play this game mode, then please share it with us. I am not saying this with any sarcasm. Genuinely pure intentions here. I genuinely want someone come to tear down the house of cards that has been in place for so long. If you managed to do this, we would all learn from you and follow your strategies over time. This is what I've wanted to do some long time ago so I do empathize with you and your frustration. And since we are on the subject --

One could argue that the language used in their community guide is vague and that individual skill matters more. And I could agree with you to some degree there because my sister and I were some of the rarespawns in the game who changed the outcome matches completely solo. We did this through abusing damage reduction multipliers, converting captured tomeliths neutral when they are at 1% left in Seal Rock and baiting enemy commanders to lead their alliance there to waste time if they didn't check progress on the mini-map, harassing bases in Shatter/Secure maps until the entire alliance has to come secure the base (wasting more time and missing out on ice/objectives), generally becoming a complete nuisance etc. etc. I've made YT videos showcasing all of this for years when I was a more active player. And I am fairly certain there were many other players doing this before we came along.

It wont matter if they gut DRK, cap AoE, gut all limit breaks, block job stacking etc. etc. Humans are very efficient creatures. We want to find the most optimal way to do everything, this is very apparent in gaming. We will theorycraft and devise new ways to achieve the exact same or better results, just like the players who enjoy doing the same in PvE/Savage/Ultimate. Your best option is to learn as much as you can, and improve as much as you can imo. but if you are daring, you might come up with something that turns everything on its head.

[Mawlzy]

Even the official community guide states, in the very beginning, that "Success on the front line will depend heavily not only on individual skill, but on your ability to work as a team."

Of course, this is self-evident. But to me teamwork suggests something very different from everyone blindly following a self-appointed commander. I recognize some of this comes down to personal preference, but for me the most enjoyable matches have no such commander. Indeed I block the majority of commanders, largely due to their inability to command without being completely obnoxious.

It wont matter if they gut DRK, cap AoE, gut all limit breaks, block job stacking etc. etc. Humans are very efficient creatures. We want to find the most optimal way to do everything, this is very apparent in gaming. We will theorycraft and devise new ways to achieve the exact same or better results, just like the players who enjoy doing the same in PvE/Savage/Ultimate. Your best option is to learn as much as you can, and improve as much as you can imo. but if you are daring, you might come up with something that turns everything on its head.

This attitude of optimizing at the expense of actual fun applies to at most 5% of FL participants. I'm glad you made the connection to Savage/Ultimate. This tiny minority you call "we" is very much trying to impose the sort of scripted dance that is required in those modes. So yes, you will find a new method of creating eye-watering win-rates and making the mode unenjoyable for the 95%. Well played, I guess. Or you could stick to high-end raiding and leave the rest of us alone.

[AllenThyl]

This attitude of optimizing at the expense of actual fun applies to at most 5% of FL participants. I'm glad you made the connection to Savage/Ultimate. This tiny minority you call "we" is very much trying to impose the sort of scripted dance that is required in those modes. So yes, you will find a new method of creating eye-watering win-rates and making the mode unenjoyable for the 95%. Well played, I guess. Or you could stick to high-end raiding and leave the rest of us alone.

Frontline is a time limited, objective based war game. I don't get why you think that the fact that there are better ways to play this mode is somehow detrimental to the "fun". The fun should be due to engagement in the mode itself, which again, has a clear goal. The other teams aren't just some bystanders, they are direct competition. Their goal is to win before you do, whatever it takes. And that should be your goal as well. If you aren't interested in competing against others, what are you even in Frontline for? Why is it, that whenever the term "fun" is thrown around in the context of Frontline, it always means stuff like "I just want to run around with my favorite class of the month and just do whatever I want with no regards to anyone or anything"? Why does "fun" never mean "actually competing to the best of everyone's ability in a competitive game mode"?

Or you could stick to high-end raiding and leave the rest of us alone.

Or, "the rest of us", could actually sit down for a few minute and reflect on why "us" are even queuing for a competitive, objective based war game, when all the things that make up this game mode are not enjoyed in the first place. There are good reasons that real world militaries are organized the way they are, and the same reasons also apply to Frontline. Having a commander who has a solid grasp of strategy is better than having none, having subcommanders who take their teams to execute the objectives of the strategy is better than having none, and having players who follow and properly apply themselves is better than people running around like chicken and playing like chicken. But the fact that you are so proud of ignoring basically any and all commanders (which also means that you are likely ignoring every good callout), doesn't make your ignorance any more enlightened.

[Mawlzy]

Frontline is a time limited, objective based war game. I don't get why you think that the fact that there are better ways to play this mode is somehow detrimental to the "fun". The fun should be due to engagement in the mode itself, which again, has a clear goal. The other teams aren't just some bystanders, they are direct competition. Their goal is to win before you do, whatever it takes. And that should be your goal as well. If you aren't interested in competing against others, what are you even in Frontline for? Why is it, that whenever the term "fun" is thrown around in the context of Frontline, it always means stuff like "I just want to run around with my favorite class of the month and just do whatever I want with no regards to anyone or anything"? Why does "fun" never mean "actually competing to the best of everyone's ability in a competitive game mode"?


Or, "the rest of us", could actually sit down for a few minute and reflect on why "us" are even queuing for a competitive, objective based war game, when all the things that make up this game mode are not enjoyed in the first place. There are good reasons that real world militaries are organized the way they are, and the same reasons also apply to Frontline. Having a commander who has a solid grasp of strategy is better than having none, having subcommanders who take their teams to execute the objectives of the strategy is better than having none, and having players who follow and properly apply themselves is better than people running around like chicken and playing like chicken. But the fact that you are so proud of ignoring basically any and all commanders (which also means that you are likely ignoring every good callout), doesn't make your ignorance any more enlightened.

Another one putting words in my mouth.

I'm not proud of it, I feel I have no choice. Since I decided to block chat-spamming commanders my win-rate has increased. I can still see where they are and what they're doing, it's not rocket science. I'm not ignoring them, I'm filtering out their distracting, mostly useless noise.

Of course I am in FL because I enjoy competing against others. I don't enjoy sharing the battlefield with AFKers, nor with those who appear to think they have some gods-given right to impose their playstyle on everyone else. Hence my suggestions in this thread.

[AllenThyl]

Yeah... no, Olivia and her ilk are the last people I would want to imitate as it's not going to improve my personal experience by "becoming part of the problem". Hell, I won't even play any of the meta stack jobs myself anymore because I'm sick of seeing their animations and having people in my alliance placing unwanted expectations on me to countdown or command, and when I try to remove those markers or they see me being dead silent in the chat, they get mad and start giving me gruff. I'd sooner get banned from the whole damn mode than ever join a premade or replicate their tactics, and I'm thankful I'm considered either too crappy or too unknown on even my own world that nobody has ever asked me to be in theirs.

Every game that allows for varied starting conditions and asymmetric teams (21 classes that can be picked, which come with different abilities and potentials), will always have a metagame emerging and subsequently evolving. Understanding and properly engaging with this metagame is precisely what sets apart good players from the rest. Your personal unwillingness and quite frankly arrogance regarding this topic doesn't make it go away, ever. And you can complain as much as you want, because just like the amount of points needed to reach to win, the very concept of a metagame is an integral part of Frontline itself. This isn't "Minecraft - make your own adventure", and it is pretty clear that you have never engaged in a competitive environment at a high level. Quite a few people are trying their best to gently encourage you to step up your game, and all you do is complain about the very thought of actually making an effort in a competitive game mode. Of course the game mode is nothing but hell for you. That's like joining a soccer match but ONLY wanting to shoot on the goal, never to run around, or even pass the ball to your teammates, because you "don't want to play the meta".

[Mawlzy]

Every game that allows for varied starting conditions and asymmetric teams (21 classes that can be picked, which come with different abilities and potentials), will always have a metagame emerging and subsequently evolving. Understanding and properly engaging with this metagame is precisely what sets apart good players from the rest. Your personal unwillingness and quite frankly arrogance regarding this topic doesn't make it go away, ever. And you can complain as much as you want, because just like the amount of points needed to reach to win, the very concept of a metagame is an integral part of Frontline itself. This isn't "Minecraft - make your own adventure", and it is pretty clear that you have never engaged in a competitive environment at a high level. Quite a few people are trying their best to gently encourage you to step up your game, and all you do is complain about the very thought of actually making an effort in a competitive game mode. Of course the game mode is nothing but hell for you. That's like joining a soccer match but ONLY wanting to shoot on the goal, never to run around, or even pass the ball to your teammates, because you "don't want to play the meta".

One aspect of FL that premade commanders and members never appreciate is the mode operates perfectly well without them. Sure you get a few headless chicken matches. (The AFKers aren't going to suddenly stand to attention because you start issuing orders.) More commonly, when no oppressive commander is on the field, the more experienced players will type suggestions. "Focus yellow," "pinch red," "S rank cave." Actual teamwork!

Similarly, most commanders completely overestimate the impact of their commanding. If they're a DRK at the spear-tip of a premade, they've skewed their a priori win-rate from 33% to 70% right there. They lead the deathball not because of shouting at the team, but because anyone who is engaging at all will naturally follow them. The power of the meat grinder does the rest.

Seriously, commanders. Try it. Command in relative silence. Or better still, solo queue and see that FL works perfectly well without you. Or would your egos not survive that?

And lol at "gently encouraging." We have been told the one true path will be beaten into us until we accept it or quit. Until commanders have the ability to shoot those not following orders, good commanding is a lot more nuanced than telling people what to do.

[aini]

mrowwwwwwwwwwwwwwww *purrs*

[Iglol]

Would you please not presume to tell me what I have a problem with? I have emphasized time and again my issue with the current situation is boring matches and a stale meta. I am offering suggestions to make them less boring. I'm sorry my attempts at humour apparently upset you.

As to improving, I've gone from being absolutely dreadful to typically having the best K/D/A of any WAR on the field. Sorry that doesn't conform to your misconceptions.

One of the things I've learned from this thread is that FL attracts players with a psychic ability to divine the thoughts and motivations of others, who additionally have never been wrong about anything in their lives. It's not surprising so few people engage with the mode.

Back to the shadows.

Speaking as one of the actual best K/D/A WARs, you sure you're one of those?