An open discsusion on the consequences of death

[Nephera]

T
Because when you die now it doesn't mean anything. You can run right back and it's fine because your freaking homepoint is always 20 feet away from you. It's seriously a joke.

How does having to use any skill tactically create any seriousness of the situation when if you mess up you can just have a redo 3 minutes later?

You can balance this sort of thing with the encounter itself instead of the entire system, if its a boss monster in a dungeon just put a lock on the door that locks when you engage it or have the monster cause a debuff that gives it extra attack power against someone it just killed .



edit:

ok here's one thing that a lot of people seem to be missing

A harsher death penalty is not going to make the monsters harder. They're still going to be pushovers until something is done to actually make them more difficult


double edit: I mean yeah we need consequences to death but good god guys, some people can punch that buffalo right in its mouth by themselves.

[origamikitsune]

A harsher death penalty is not going to make the monsters harder. They're still going to be pushovers until something is done to actually make them more difficult

True, but today as an example. I did some leves where, frankly, I just didn't pay attention (granted they were screw around leves with friends just for something to do) and we ended up wiping four or five times. I didn't pay attention because, frankly, it didn't matter, so I just didn't care. This is something I never would have done in 11. In 11, when I wanted to screw around, it was going out and one-shotting rarabs in the name of vengeance. It wasn't against R30 leve mobs as a R12.

[Abriael]

I actually like Yoshida's ideas on the death penalty. The only problem I see is this:

Conjurer: can I join your party?
Party Leader: sure! great, now we have a mage to raise us if we die, let's go!
Conjurer: but what about if I die? I'm squishier than you y'know ;_;
Party Leader: don't worry, we'll be careful
Later . . . archer pulls hate, tank can't keep hate, etc . . . conjurer dies
(it can be hard to avoid AOE attacks when the melees and the archers are playing mob ping-pong, particularly if you are trying to actually, y'know, cast)

With the new focus on smaller party sizes (especially the 4-person ones) I don't think it will always be practical to have 2 mages to raise each other in case of death. So if this idea is implemented, as a mage I'm sure gonna be pickier about who I party with unless there's another mage or two in the party.

Yoshida's ideas also includes tiered resurrection spells, which means that resurrection will be available at much lower levels than now. Pretty much anyone with a decent level on conjurer or thaumaturge will be able to ressurrect the mage, even if they're not playing mage themselves.
You can be sure that I will always have whatever resurrection I can get in bar, whatever class I might be playing. I actually enjoy resurrecting people and did it a lot in other games that gave me a chance to, even if I normally play tank characters.

Ah, the joys of the armory system that some can't seem to understand

True, but today as an example. I did some leves where, frankly, I just didn't pay attention (granted they were screw around leves with friends just for something to do) and we ended up wiping four or five times. I didn't pay attention because, frankly, it didn't matter, so I just didn't care. This is something I never would have done in 11. In 11, when I wanted to screw around, it was going out and one-shotting rarabs in the name of vengeance. It wasn't against R30 leve mobs as a R12.

If you don't care about wiping multiple times and making your whole group waste time because of you, the problem isn't in the lack of experience based death penalty. Sorry to burst a bubble.

A harsher death penalty is not going to make the monsters harder.

Some are so stuck in their antiquated systems that date back to DIKUmuds (and that almost every developer did away with because they're completely unnecessary and damaging) and delusions of hardcoreness that really can't seem to get this, isn't it?

[kukurumei]

Yoshida's ideas also includes tiered resurrection spells, which means that resurrection will be available at much lower levels than now. Pretty much anyone with a decent level on conjurer or thaumaturge will be able to ressurrect the mage, even if they're not playing mage themselves.
You can be sure that I will always have whatever resurrection I can get in bar, whatever class I might be playing. I actually enjoy resurrecting people and did it a lot in other games that gave me a chance to, even if I normally play tank characters.

Ah, the joys of the armory system that some can't seem to understand

I don't even see the reason to even have Raise in the current system. Anyone can just change a weapon or equip/unequip the skill to raise someone. Why waste a slot.

I'm assuming that it's something to be used only during a battle...or it's more or less a pointless skill. "I'm dead" change skill, raise, change back.

If any developer is thinking of bringing these spells in, they are either thinking of revamping the armoury system, or they're just making the same mistakes as their predecessor.

There's no reason to have a medic if anyone can make you feel as good as new in two-shakes of a strawberry shake.

[Abriael]

I don't even see the reason to even have Raise in the current system. Anyone can just change a weapon or equip/unequip the skill to raise someone. Why waste a slot.

When you change a skill you have to wait for the cooldown. Resurrection doesn't exactly have a short one. That's why.

[Kaedan]

Some are so stuck in their antiquated systems that date back to DIKUmuds (and that almost every developer did away with because they're completely unnecessary and damaging) and delusions of hardcoreness that really can't seem to get this, isn't it?

And some people who are stubborn in their opinion are completely unwilling to even try and see the other side's point of view. The other side is willing to find a middle ground to deal with, while you aren't even willing to budge one inch from your position that a death penalty is unnecessary.

So who is really more delusional here?

[Abriael]

And some people who are stubborn in their opinion are completely unwilling to even try and see the other side's point of view. The other side is willing to find a middle ground to deal with, while you aren't even willing to budge one inch from your position that a death penalty is unnecessary.

The middle ground already exists. It's called "yoshida's proposals".
He already stated that they aren't planning any xp/sp related death penalty. The vast majority of the people that posted here (and in the other million threads opened by the nostalgics that just can't give up) already stated they don't want to even hear about that. The same goes for the japanese forums. The vast majority of game developers of the latest MMORPGs agree on that, and did away with it as well. This should easily give you a clear signal of the fact that experience based death penalty is an antiquated, roundabout and simply meaningless mechanic.

Someone already suggested how you can auto-impose a harsh death penalty to yourself in a quite creative way without trying to impose it on everyone else. Punch to the crotch, and everyone wins.

Trying to see your point of view doesn't mean agreeing with it, or thinking that it makes even the slightest sense.

[Kaedan]

The middle ground already exists. It's called "yoshida's proposals".
He already stated that they aren't planning any xp/sp related death penalty. The vast majority of the people that posted here (and in the other million threads opened by the nostalgics that just can't give up) already stated they don't want to even hear about that. The same goes for the japanese forums. The vast majority of game developers of the latest MMORPGs agree on that, and did away with it as well. This should easily give you a clear signal of the fact that experience based death penalty is an antiquated, roundabout and simply meaningless mechanic.

Someone already suggested how you can auto-impose a harsh death penalty to yourself in a quite creative way without trying to impose it on everyone else. Punch to the crotch, and everyone wins.

Trying to see your point of view doesn't mean agreeing with it, or thinking that it makes even the slightest sense.

Yes, Yoshi's proposal is a middle ground... but it's not the only solution, and it's far from the only idea. And a lot of Casuals don't even want to accept his proposal.

So why is his middle ground acceptable to talk about, but another option isn't? Why is it that some Casuals will accept his idea and not even give other ideas the time of day?

You have yet to prove a "vast majority" are against an SP/Anima penalty. Just taking a quick estimate from this thread alone, it'd say it's split about 50/50. A few people making a lot of posts =/= majority.

You made the claim that Japanese forums are the same. Link me a forum where you think the majority is against a SP/Anima death penalty. Because I haven't found one.

And your last two statements just go further to proving that you aren't willing to budge on your stance... you are crafting a straw man and you know it. People are not looking for individual flagellation. They recognize the need for a deterrent for dying FOR EVERYONE (Yoshi even recognizes this).

[Tiraelina]

1. The "vast majority" does not read or post on this or any other forums, they play the game.

2. Hardcores are the minority everywhere now compared to the size of the player base.

I don't feel there needs to be any death penalty on every single death you have. I'm also not stuck on ideas of old where getting your corpse looted clean was the norm or gear being destroyed/dropping from dying. This is after playing and enjoying Lineage 2 for years where deleveling was part of the game.

There's plenty of other ways to make dying during a NM battle cause problems that won't screw up everywhere else that were already posted in this thread. You claim everyone isn't meeting you halfway but then discard other ideas that don't involve the general penalty for dying on things that matter.

How much fun do you think I was having as a main DoL that I couldn't do my leves because I was getting killed by an NM that was sitting on the nodes?

[Abriael]

Yes, Yoshi's proposal is a middle ground... but it's not the only solution, and it's far from the only idea. And a lot of Casuals don't even want to accept his proposal.

It's the idea that will be implemented. Maybe it's time to give it up instead of just continuing to grind on the nostalgia for a concept that almost every developer scrapped, with reason.

So why is his middle ground acceptable to talk about, but another option isn't? Why is it that some Casuals will accept his idea and not even give other ideas the time of day?

Because his idea is not an unreasonable timesink with absolutely zero positive effects. XP/SP death penalty is. Not only it doesn't add anything to the fun factor of the game (which is what counts), but actually detracts from it, triggering frustration in people that don't have tons of time to pour into the game and can take timesink in stride for the sake of defining themselvs "hardore"

You have yet to prove a "vast majority" are against an SP/Anima penalty. Just taking a quick estimate from this thread alone, it'd say it's split about 50/50. A few people making a lot of posts =/= majority.

You must be reading very selectively. The people making "a lot of posts" are mostly people continuously arguing in favor of XP/SP death penalty that just seem not to be able to let go.

You made the claim that Japanese forums are the same. Link me a forum where you think the majority is against a SP/Anima death penalty. Because I haven't found one.

I linked it. Maybe you just ignored it. Besides, if you're so good at reading japanese I can't fathom how you managed to miss it since it's in the dev tracker AND in the most logical place to look for (battle systems forums), with the most logical title "about death penalty". Maybe you just looked into the general discussion forum, assuming that the Japanese are like us and just dump everything in the general discussion forum ignoring the specific ones we've been given?

And your last two statements just go further to proving that you aren't willing to budge on your stance... you are crafting a straw man and you know it. People are not looking for individual flagellation. They recognize the need for a deterrent for dying FOR EVERYONE (Yoshi even recognizes this).

So people should be willing to budge because you say so? Sorry. Doesn't work like that.

2. Hardcores are the minority everywhere now compared to the size of the player base.

Undeniable truth, and this game has been explicitly publicized as casual-friendly.