An open discsusion on the consequences of death

[Akumu]

Also, having exp loss in XI never stopped anyone from trying new things. I don't know where you're getting that from. It just made you see a lot quick that what you were doing isn't going to work lol. If you're going to do something that gets you killed why would it be good in the first place? Obviously if you're dying than you're doing something wrong here.

What server(s) did you play on? You must have had the best server(s) in XI. I myself have only played seriously on 2 and both had plenty of scared paranoid players that only wanted the cookie cutter. There were so many times I had to level jobs I hated just to get a shot at something. Also being set back because some douche tank or healer thought it was cool to warp mid fight.

[Abriael]

I myself have only played seriously on 2 and both had plenty of scared paranoid players that only wanted the cookie cutter. There were so many times I had to level jobs I hated just to get a shot at something. Also being set back because some douche tank or healer thought it was cool to warp mid fight.

True. Also harsh death penalties discourage socializationand grouping with people you don't know. It's doubtlss that people die a LOT because of action/lack of action by other people from which they have no fault. Without a harsh death penalty nothing stands in the way of grouping with someone i never met before. On the other hand with a harsh death penalty people would be much more wary before giving others a chance.

[solracht]

What server(s) did you play on? You must have had the best server(s) in XI. I myself have only played seriously on 2 and both had plenty of scared paranoid players that only wanted the cookie cutter. There were so many times I had to level jobs I hated just to get a shot at something. Also being set back because some douche tank or healer thought it was cool to warp mid fight.

This has absolutely nothing to do with FFXI having an exp loss, and rather with FFXI events being inconvenient to try.

Examples: Why take a <insert "weak" job here> to CoP when it took an hour just to get to the battlefield? Why try the battle with a suboptimal setup when you took two weeks to farm the Omega pop set? Why take random people you don't know and risk failure when you can only do <insert event here> 1-2 times per week? Why not bring the best you can, when you only have one try at the NM? etc.

I am actually opposed to losing exp when dying (as shown by my posts in this thread), however, don't be delusional, what you're describing would and will happen in FFXIV (or any online game) as long as events aren't easy to access or retry. There were always far more important things to lose than EXP (such as the key to the event or time).

Penalty upon death was usually the least important thing (from my experience) when it came to why things were done or not done.

[Akumu]

This has absolutely nothing to do with FFXI having an exp loss, and rather with FFXI events being inconvenient to try.

Examples: Why take a <insert "weak" job here> to CoP when it took an hour just to get to the battlefield? Why try the battle with a suboptimal setup when you took two weeks to farm the Omega pop set? Why take random people you don't know and risk failure when you can only do <insert event here> 1-2 times per week? Why not bring the best you can, when you only have one try at the NM? etc.

I am actually opposed to losing exp when dying (as shown by my posts in this thread), however, don't be delusional, what you're describing would and will happen in FFXIV (or any online game) as long as events aren't easy to access or retry. There were always far more important things to lose than EXP (such as the key to the event or time).

Penalty upon death was usually the least important thing (from my experience) when it came to why things were done or not done.

What you're stating does play into XI design flaw overall. A game that promoted party play and interactions yet adding features to go against branching out to that potentially good stranger. People that stayed just accepted xp loss because of their love of the game but that didn't stop the rage. I have met people that excelled in their "weak" job but still weren't given a chance in the end. Result? New players didn't even bother with the "weak" job so they wouldn't be an outcast.

[Anathiel]

What you're stating does play into XI design flaw overall. A game that promoted party play and interactions yet adding features to go against branching out to that potentially good stranger. People that stayed just accepted xp loss because of their love of the game but that didn't stop the rage. I have met people that excelled in their "weak" job but still weren't given a chance in the end. Result? New players didn't even bother with the "weak" job so they wouldn't be an outcast.

Took me a year and a half to get drk to 75, took me 2 months to get paladin to 75. Because people didn't want to help my drk with anything but seemed to jump to get a pld something he needed.

[Ruchui]

I genuinely sighed when I first learned there was no death penalty in FFXIV. As inconvenient as losing exp and even de-lvling was (in XI), it sure added tremendously to the excitement of many an adventure!

Would I like to experience those thrills again in XIV? Indeed I would!

If I was given the power right now to design the death penalty for XIV, would I replicate the rules from XI? No.

Personally, Id like to see a middle ground reached. But I dont believe its even the HC gamer in me that wishes for a "punishment", rather I see the game as it is now broken. There was something special about the res spell in XI, but not in XIV - for obvious reasons. Basically Id make it that dying would result in a small % of SP loss (with diminished returns for deaths while under res sickness). No de-lvling (that really, really, really annoyed me). And ofc, give res spells tiers, R1 to restore 50% of the penalty and top rank to dramatically reduce the penalty.

This would add risk/excitement to general adventuring, without being overkill, while avoiding being imbalanced. How nice for a high level passing by to stop and give a top tier res to fallen PC and since there is no de-lvling it means that at end content a top rank res would get you quickly back in the action, but if it had a high CD/MP cost, a healer would have to decide whether to use it (for that vital tank/healer/top or tactically best DD), or go 1 tier below top and have a somewhat noticeable gear damage impact. Also it means for brief periods of time during the lvling process, you could be cheeky and get off lightly if things go bad ^^

[Vesper]

True. Also harsh death penalties discourage socializationand grouping with people you don't know. It's doubtlss that people die a LOT because of action/lack of action by other people from which they have no fault. Without a harsh death penalty nothing stands in the way of grouping with someone i never met before. On the other hand with a harsh death penalty people would be much more wary before giving others a chance.

I completely agree with this. After many a bad group in FF11 I got sick of grouping with people I did not know. In FFXIV I group with tons of people and am willing to test out new people I have never played with because if I die I dust myself off and try again. I am having a blast overall. But if SP/XP loss is implemented I doubt I will be doing much with Pick up groups anymore

The game does not need SP/XP loss. Yoshi's proposed system is better than what we have but not harsh enough to discourage grouping with new people.

I would go for something more along the lines of...

Impaired: A player becomes impaired when dying/being knocked out once. An impaired player receives a temporary penalty to statistics and cool-down timer of skills, this penalty persists for 3 minutes. (As is works now)
Weakened: A player becomes weakened when dying/being knocked while under the effects of Impairment. An impaired player receives a temporary penalty to statistics and cool-down timer of skills, this penalty is double the penalty a player receives while Impaired, this penalty lasts 4 minutes.
Crippled: A player becomes crippled when dying/being knocked while under the effects of Weakened. A crippled player receives a temporary penalty that makes it impossible to attack as well as use battle based spells or skills, this penalty lasts 5 minutes

Note the timers do not stack, they just get 1 minute longer each death in succession.

[Fleur]

I actually like Yoshida's ideas on the death penalty. The only problem I see is this:

Conjurer: can I join your party?
Party Leader: sure! great, now we have a mage to raise us if we die, let's go!
Conjurer: but what about if I die? I'm squishier than you y'know ;_;
Party Leader: don't worry, we'll be careful
Later . . . archer pulls hate, tank can't keep hate, etc . . . conjurer dies
(it can be hard to avoid AOE attacks when the melees and the archers are playing mob ping-pong, particularly if you are trying to actually, y'know, cast)

With the new focus on smaller party sizes (especially the 4-person ones) I don't think it will always be practical to have 2 mages to raise each other in case of death. So if this idea is implemented, as a mage I'm sure gonna be pickier about who I party with unless there's another mage or two in the party.

[Chardrizard]

With the new focus on smaller party sizes (especially the 4-person ones) I don't think it will always be practical to have 2 mages to raise each other in case of death. So if this idea is implemented, as a mage I'm sure gonna be pickier about who I party with unless there's another mage or two in the party.

This, I will be much pickier and might never gives retards second chance anymore because i dont like wasting my exp and time.

[Nephera]

well its a bit early to be vowing to be "That guy" but whatever floats your boat.

edit: This is probably why wanna lean towards leniency.