Regarding Dungeon Feedback: Don’t Listen to People Who Don’t Know How to Play

[Jaxtaro]

Unfortunately, the person you are replying to can't be argued with. In a different thread they said they were confident that well over 10% of players are unhappy with current content. In the same sentence, they acknowledged that the statement was also pure speculation.

Way to be utterly incapable of subtlety and honesty at the same time.

[Jaxtaro]

This is the most non self-aware post I've seen in awhile; like a literal giant red flag that you don't know what you're talking about, to the point where I also know *you* know that you don't know what you're talking about and was just winging it in the hopes that you were correct.

The only expansion DT is harder than IMO is Endwalker. SHB, Stormblood, ARR are all more difficult or at the very least comparable and don't EVEN get me started on Heavensward. If you're going to try to feign knowledge on something to try and make a point, atleast do the tiniest bit of research first.

Or...conversely, you overestimate the difficulty of those expansions based on nostalgaic feelings. There is noting from ARR to EW which is on par with Vanguard and Beyond, especially Tender Valley or Strayborough Deadwalk. Not a single thing. The things that were being complained about in ARR were the Coerthas dungeons, and at worst Wanderer's palace and none of them were ever on par with DT dungeons. The HW stuff was basically Atherochemical facility and "Sloppppeh. " Stormblood was mostly limited to Ghymlit Dark.


There is nothing in ShB or EW that even comes close to the last few duties. Being in denial or looking back with rose colored glasse doesn't change it.

The reason that some of you guys keep making incorrect assumptions is because you seem incapable of registering that someone can do the content, enjoy the content (Strayborough Deadwalk is my favorite dungeon in the game, and I pretty much love all DT dungeons) and still acknowledge that there are plenty of people struggling and want them to have content for them.


Since you quoted me, I will assume you read that I am only concerned with MSQ 4 man content and feel that Valigarmatha and Arcadion are both fine.

[jdtuggey]

Or...conversely, you overestimate the difficulty of those expansions based on nostalgaic feelings.

Your perspective only considers these expansions currently.
I think Sekia meant these expansions when they were current.
Then, like, it looks more like a constant downwards slope and endwalker was the bottom of it, Dawntrail is just slightly nudging it back up the other way.
At least, that's how I remember it.
This game was effing brutal in the past lol.
That perspective feels also more relevant to the topic.

On the other hand, if she really did mean the expansions in their current state, I mean.... I did Xelphatol today as a tank with another mentor as healer, and we were both really surprised by a line AOE that came out of the second boss like, instantly ? .3 secs cast, barely lol.
Healer instantly died, and it hit me for 50% hp. I didn't even see it coming out. Like, maybe we were missing a mechanic ?
But at the same time, I tried to figure it out, and I couldn't, something I would never say about modern content.
You always know what's up when you get one shot if you pay attention nowadays.
Same with the damage output lol, it was completely unexpected.
Not that it was particularly hard either, but Dawntrail isn't either. :P

There's also like... Stone Vigil ? I don't know if they tuned it in Dawntrail, but man that dungeon is brutal.
Healers barely have a kit at all at that point, and the trash pulls just chew tanks. It's not difficult per se, but it's clearly harder than Dawntrail content, or used to be in endwalker.
Am leveling my war right now, at level 95 with like... item level 640, healer doesn't even need to heal me and barely needs to heal the party ? And this is in like, the latest dungeon I can do, wormor zoqmor or w/e.
Is that really hard ? #doubt

And I mean, I don't know if you want to include alliance raids, but the ivalice raids are pretty annoying. :P
Myths is an absolute joke compared to that. Ivalice is a thing I haven't done since EW tho, maybe, again, that they adjusted it ?

Like, there's a lot of janky content, relics from the past when the game was harder, and they haven't done gold standard pass on everything yet.

I know you have good intentions, but hmm... Road to hell is paved with those I guess ? :P

[Jaxtaro]

Stuff

Except it doesn't...a lot of factors were considered, not just as the jobs and tuning were at the time, but also the level of players' experience and comfort in general, and I specifically pointed out the Coerthas dungeons, which includes Stone Vigil, which is my favorite old school dungeon, as well as Aurum Vale, Dzamael Darkhold and Cutter's Cry as the stuff that people struggled with the most, and I don't know how many times I have to point out that I think that 8 man duties such as Valigarmatha and the AAC fights are fine for the most part.

I'm not saying the content was easy, but it is certainly not on par with DT, especially the last 5 dungeons.

We tend to overstate our accomplishments, which is what leads to this kind of romantic view of how hard things that weren't all that rough "back in the day". As a veteran of High End Everquest during it's heyday, which is the MMO which had an end zone that wasn't cleared until the next expansion, and the subsequent one had a boss that was killed by 2 guilds gamewide (minebwas one of them) I know exactly what that entails.

You're talking about levelling your warrior, and we all know how warriors are currently, but I'm curious, have you finished DT content yet? Are you speaking from experience? I can't imagine anyone comparing Stone Vigil to Stayborough Deathwalk.

[jdtuggey]

You're talking about levelling your warrior, and we all know how warriors are currently, but I'm curious, have you finished DT content yet? Are you speaking from experience? I can't imagine anyone comparing Stone Vigil to Stayborough Deathwalk.

Brother, take a minute to open lodestone and look up my character. I have PLD, VPR, SGE, SMN, SCH and MNK leveled at 100 right now. They're all fairly geared too. ;o
I have 5 crafters at 100, 2 gatherers at 100. There's two classes I never touched, the rest is all 80 and up ? My latest achieve is for clearing M4 10 times.
I have a transaction for a server transfer dating back to September 2014, that's not even a year after release, I have 3 years of accumulated sub time, and when I sub, am active on the game.
I've been active during all expansions while they were current.
Like, none of this is to write home about either. I'm not even especially good at the game. I'd say I'm slightly above average ? My character is nothing special either. ;P
Am not looking to brag either, but if you're gonna doubt....
I have not struggled more with any of these classes than with warrior. This game is easy at the level of content we're talking about, including dawntrail, and you insult me with that post lol.
Not sure why you doubt me when you can just... Look it up yourself. :P
The more I see you post, the more I doubt your intentions. You aren't really serving your cause right now.
You might use prettier words, but you're starting to sound pretty nasty even through that.
If you wanted to convince me that I'm right and that person who told you you don't know what you're talking about is also right, you couldn't do a better job at it if you tried.

Do you need me to record dungeon runs to prove what am saying ? lol.
"We tend to overstate our achievements"
Like ... ufffffffffffffffffffff x_x

I can already see the "you belong in savage and ultimates" posts. No, I don't.
I don't have time and don't want to commit to these.
I'm an actual casual player that has been loyal to ffxiv for 10 years.
If anyone could tell if something is harder compared to other things or periods in the game, I feel like am pretty well positioned to evaluate that, as long as we're not talking high-end raiding.

[SekiaTa1ga]

Or...conversely, you overestimate the difficulty of those expansions based on nostalgaic feelings. There is noting from ARR to EW which is on par with Vanguard and Beyond, especially Tender Valley or Strayborough Deadwalk. Not a single thing. The things that were being complained about in ARR were the Coerthas dungeons, and at worst Wanderer's palace and none of them were ever on par with DT dungeons. The HW stuff was basically Atherochemical facility and "Sloppppeh. " Stormblood was mostly limited to Ghymlit Dark.


There is nothing in ShB or EW that even comes close to the last few duties. Being in denial or looking back with rose colored glasse doesn't change it.

The reason that some of you guys keep making incorrect assumptions is because you seem incapable of registering that someone can do the content, enjoy the content (Strayborough Deadwalk is my favorite dungeon in the game, and I pretty much love all DT dungeons) and still acknowledge that there are plenty of people struggling and want them to have content for them.


Since you quoted me, I will assume you read that I am only concerned with MSQ 4 man content and feel that Valigarmatha and Arcadion are both fine.

It's a really weird statement to say people are misremembering difficulty being harder than it was when you're the one that seems to struggle with difficulty in general as far as I can tell from reading this thread. I mean, wouldn't the person who more than likely struggled less with dungeons be a better arbiter of what expacs had harder difficulty opposed to the one who just found all of them difficult?

I think the problem here is you're assuming there's a group that finds 'normal content' easy and another group that finds it hard, when in fact it's more along the lines of most people finding it doable and then another outlier group that's way separated down the line that finds it difficult. The difference here is I think that even people who run savage are closer to the median than the later.

The biggest thing that gripes me is instead of just improving or getting up to par, this small group of people instead focuses on trying to change the content itself. Like is it really so hard to admit that perhaps you're just not good at the game and not even close to the average mark? I mean that as noninflammatory as I can also because I honestly think that's the case. These people believing they're closer to the average player than people who find the content easy is just a giant cope so they can mentally divert the imagined issue of difficulty to the game itself as a problem, rather than themselves being a problem.

Attached is the reality.

[Jaxtaro]

It's a really weird statement to say people are misremembering difficulty being harder than it was when you're the one that seems to struggle with difficulty in general as far as I can tell from reading this thread. I mean, wouldn't the person who more than likely struggled less with dungeons be a better arbiter of what expacs had harder difficulty opposed to the one who just found all of them difficult?

I think the problem here is you're assuming there's a group that finds 'normal content' easy and another group that finds it hard, when in fact it's more along the lines of most people finding it doable and then another outlier group that's way separated down the line that finds it difficult. The difference here is I think that even people who run savage are closer to the median than the later.

The biggest thing that gripes me is instead of just improving or getting up to par, this small group of people instead focuses on trying to change the content itself. Like is it really so hard to admit that perhaps you're just not good at the game and not even close to the average mark? I mean that as noninflammatory as I can also because I honestly think that's the case. These people believing they're closer to the average player than people who find the content easy is just a giant cope so they can mentally divert the imagined issue of difficulty to the game itself as a problem, rather than themselves being a problem.

Attached is the reality.

So clearly you're not reading AT ALL, because I've only made it clear half a dozen times that I am not struggling personally, so apparently there's no point in continuing with you, since head canon is your guide and not...you know.. the conversation.

What's more, you have literally zero data that you can point to to determine what is or isn't an outlier, which is ironic considering others have tried to make a big issue over the assumption that it's above a given number.

[Sida]

The ones who have the data though is SE and they will know exactly how big percentage of players fail at which content, or which content gets not run. Or at what parts of the dungeons they are abandoned. They have not a reason not to have such statistics. If the dungeons were so hard that meaningful percentage of player base would get stuck to them, or had to do many repeated run to clear them, they would know.

[Jinglypockets]

Are you speaking from experience? I can't imagine anyone comparing Stone Vigil to Stayborough Deathwalk.

My wipes per run in Stone Vigil is way higher than in Strayborough. It's not even close.

How many times have you run Strayborough? It's not hard once you know how it works. It's hard to get through the first boss without getting hit, but getting hit is more annoying than punishing. The other two bosses are super easy.

[jdtuggey]

...

Okay so you can make sweeping statement with 0 data, and Sekia can't.
Like, to me, with all my experience, this is what the graph looks like for real.
That huge gap is the difference from a player who wants to learn, to a player who doesn't want to, and expects the game to bend around them.
I know exactly where I am on that graph. I'm on that fatter dot on the end of the green spectrum.
If I had any real criticism, it's that the gap between green and yellow is probably wider. :P
I can probably pin thresholds within that green zone, like, I feel that green dot at the end of that spectrum is the part where you start to be independent.
Things like hitting Second Wind when you make a mistake instead of waiting for your healer to wipe up your blunder, especially when you see he's struggling.
Things like hitting your carbuncle shield on smn when you anticipate incoming damage within 30 secs, cause like, you have windows to use that shield.

Like, there's a bias at play here too if you're struggling at the game.

Let's assume you struggle.
Your chances of seeing parties that struggle are much higher than mine, because every single of your parties starts on the backfoot.
Meanwhile, because I know my way around the game and I play it on a decent level, my chances to get a party that struggles are much, much less.
And I can compensate for a mate who struggles or two, which further lowers my chances of me seeing a struggling party.
You see much more parties fail than I do in that situation, which would give you the feeling that a lot more people struggle than reality.

I do not feel it's much to ask to look at your kit, learn it, and use it. To accept that you can make mistakes and you will die.
Oh lord, I died a lot. I learned from every single one of these deaths and I looked for solutions to do better next time.

Think that for most who struggle with difficulty, it's a mindset thing, cause I can compare this difficulty with like, I don't know how much video games I played, and it feels reasonable and fair.
They don't feel they should have to learn, they don't feel they should have to think, they put these buttons on their bars, but they haven't even read what they do and they forget about them when they matter.
I don't feel I even have to try ? I just use the full kit of all the classes I play. Every class has buttons to respond to situations.
Things like bloodbath, second wind, things like knowing that with mnk and vpr, you can use your charge to quickly go to allies, not just monsters.
There's exceptions to this, but they're just that, exceptions. Generally we don't discount a rule for exceptions.
Am more than willing to help someone who's missing a hand in a dungeon lol, and I can afford that.

It doesn't bother me if people don't want to read and use their full kits to respond to situations or learn. You play the game like you want to play it.
I'll even be happy to help you have a smooth run for once if I get you in my runs.
Also, I'll never discount a player who struggles, but wants to learn and get better.
Where it starts bothering me is when these people say the game needs change to the difficulty of casual content. It doesn't.
There's a point where it becomes legit to ask yourself "Do I really like this game ? Is it for me really ?", this isn't about bullying people out of the game, it's looking after the interests of everybody.

Time to put down the hatchet brother, you've taken this well beyond its expiration date. Think we all have.
You crossed a line for me when you told me "we tend to overstate our achievements" with 0 information on who I am.

Edit: I do not think I have ever wiped on Strayborough. I have had many party wipes on Tender Valley, because of its "gotcha" traps, and a whole lot more than that in Stone Vigil lol.
Stray is not hard, it's annoying.