Regarding Dungeon Feedback: Don’t Listen to People Who Don’t Know How to Play

[jdtuggey]

One of the problems with these kind of discussions is that we are so accustomed to taking "good guy/bad guy" sides that it makes real interaction impossible. There is no part of my post that you responded to which warrants an argument over who is being served or not, because that wasn't the intent of the response, but if you want to go there, fine, let's go there.

People are willing to queue for content which is "too easy" and always have been, and always will be as long as they stand to gain something from it. For evidence, I only need point to the continued popularity if MSQ dailies, which are not only completely braindead content, but are often more time consuming and full of long, unavoidable cutscenes. Your argument in the face of that is literally invalidated.

There were no lack of queues in ShB or EW, both cited as gouge out your eyes boring easymode. The existence of all of these eliminates the notion that daily content being "too easy" drives people away or has a negative impact on queue times.

I mean, in the same way, you don't have data on dawntrail queues, you're working on assumptions.
Like, it's an understandable anxiety that queue times might get longer ?
But I don't think at all that the Dawntrail changes will increase queue times, people will get used to it and start overgearing the content in a week.
Then, once players in full savage gear drop into other people's dungeon runs, it will make them significantly easier even for other people. Not to mention most people will get access to crafted gear, I believe ?
I play with a group of 3 other people regularly, and we're already thinning how many mechanics bosses pull on us because we're killing them faster.
I also think that having more engaging content might create retention for veterans. :P

All I'm trying to say is that it's not a range I think that can be widened, either we push/pull on the range along the spectrum of players, if that makes sense ?
Whichever way it goes, they're gonna lose players on one side/gain players on the others. I don't think this is ever gonna have an effect on queue times. :P

This isn't about good guy/bad guy, it's about showing you the opposite of this, how someone like me who has played ffxiv 10 years and has been heavily involved in gaming communities for 30 sees it.
I don't think my opinion is more valuable on its own than your own. I'm not here to be anyone's enemy and fight, but yeah I enjoy parsing data and looking ahead at what kind of effects changes might have.
(not the illegal kind of parsing, just clarifying lol)
I also understand that you might be pre-conditioned to see me like.. An enemy, it's not what I'm trying to do.
No jokes, Dawntrail is my favorite expansion, I spend about 5% of my time in story stuff, hell yeah finally having really engaging gameplay, you know ?
So I'm invested in defending that. I don't see you as an enemy.

Also, I never, ever, implied that queue times suffered in endwalker. I don't think they will for a long time in the future.
I just wanted to expose that the argument makes as much sense on the other side.
Concerning msq roul, most of us are happy to skip it if we don't need it. Watching youtube for 45 minutes while babysitting the game isn't my idea of engaging content indeed.
Queue still doesn't suffer, you're right, there's just so many people on the game, someone is bound to need it.
Yes, sometimes we do stuff because we need it, not because it's fun. It's much better when it's both or the latter though ?
Another reason why am not sure why you're anxious about the queues. :P

Like, the expansion is a month old, the raids are a week old, crafted gear isn't even released, savage isn't out,
we're barely edging over min ilvl right now, feels like some people are overblowing this difficulty thing way too much without considering context.

[Jaxtaro]

I agree that there is no data available to us that shows anything that can be pointed to to say "impact is X", and that the best thing is to keep things as is and see if people manage to pick it up after a while, but also that it should probably be monitored closely so that indecision and inaction don't cause their own set of problems.

[chip793]

I feel like this comes up every time an expansion releases and most of us just know that a good chunk of the complaints come from skippers. Playing through the entire game to 100 would definitely teach you all you need to know about dungeon mechanics of all things.

[AbyssDarks]

I feel like this comes up every time an expansion releases and most of us just know that a good chunk of the complaints come from skippers. Playing through the entire game to 100 would definitely teach you all you need to know about dungeon mechanics of all things.

To be faaaair.... Leveling from 1 to 100 is getting pretty ridiculous at this point. 100+ hours is probably way too much time for the vast majority of players, and some classes are *extremely* boring at low levels. BLM off the top of my head. Fire1... F1... F1... F1...

I can definitely understand the desire to skip at this point. I skipped myself after failing to get into the game 3 other times, but Ive played and raided in almost every other MMO on the market so I had a pretty solid understanding of what would be expected of me and just had to adjust to the differences, like healer DPS and snapshots. I can tell you 100%, I doubt Id still be playing if I didnt skip.

That being said, obviously that comes with the caveat of newer players jumping into later game content without a clue. Its hard to tell someone "it gets good after 100 hours" though and expect them to tough that out just so they can learn their class. Even if I didnt play other MMO's, no way in hell would it take me 100 hours to learn my class.

I think getting newer players better intermediate tutorials and speeding the pace that they get to content that requires a braincell or 2 should be a factor in this shift in design. Every xpac they make just makes it even harder for new players to get into the game unless they are hard invested in all of the story. And not all of the story is as exciting as ShB, to put it nicely...

I dunno what the solution is for the "Ive been playing since ARR and this is too hard!" people is though. I was already getting ridiculously bored with how easy content was getting the past couple xpacs. Do people really want to play a game with no challenge or evolution forever? Is falling asleep from lack of engagement really that fun to them?

[Rydia_Misuto]

Do we really need thirty (30) threads on this topic? And yes, I counted.

The people who have finally had a mote of difficulty brought back to the game are passionate in wanting to be heard over the voices that have not stopped asking for the game to be simpler for a decade straight, and will never be happy until the game is two buttons that both do the same thing.

[Crafoutis]

never been representative of the playerbase, because the majority of the playerbase doesn't come here due to the reputation it has had.

What keeps people away from game forums in general is not due to reputation but purely due to fact that most people who play games don't actually engage with social media or forum communications about the games they play. They just play it. The forums aren't some boogieman keeping them away, to them the forums or subreddits or whatever may as well not even exist for all they care.

[jdtuggey]

The people who have finally had a mote of difficulty brought back to the game are passionate in wanting to be heard over the voices that have not stopped asking for the game to be simpler for a decade straight, and will never be happy until the game is two buttons that both do the same thing.

This person has been inflaming these threads repeatedly. (The person you are replying to)
She's thriving on these discussions way more than the people who care about preserving Dawntrail's changes in pace, and has been a major contributor to keep these discussions alive.
She has no right to complain about them, if we care about intellectual honesty and consistency. :P
Think there's ulterior motives behind what she posts.
I feel like either she likes the dopamine rush of feeling virtuous and defending the underdogs, even if the underdogs are wrong and selfish, or she thrives on negative attention, or she's just trolling.

[EiraWoqiso]

What keeps people away from game forums in general is not due to reputation but purely due to fact that most people who play games don't actually engage with social media or forum communications about the games they play. They just play it. The forums aren't some boogieman keeping them away, to them the forums or subreddits or whatever may as well not even exist for all they care.

While that's true, the official forums have an incredibly bad reputation on... well, basically every other platform imaginable. Genuinely, Twitter and Reddit have vastly better discussions about the game. Most only come here to provide feedback, as it's been stated that they primarily look to these forums as their main source of feedback.

[SekiaTa1ga]

The problem with your position is multifold.

1.First and foremost, people who don't like the difficulty know exactly how to play the game as it was designed and has existed for every single expac until this. You are asking them to play a different game.

2. No one is asking for content which is set aside to be challenging to be not available to you. Everyone wants you to have content for you. These folks want content for them consistent with the entire game up to this point, and your position seeks to deny them of that.

3. People aren't queuing for daily roulettes for multiple reasons related to Dawntrail dungeons.

A. Toxicity is much higher with votekicks, performance pressure and impatience.

B. Performance anxiety demotivates people from queuing with jobs they aren't comfortable with, and especially those with cast times.

Finally, and probably most important, FFXIV has a reputation for being a "big tent" game that tries to support all playstyles, andvthis is a drastic deviation from thst.

Older players, non gamers, disabled players, those who have any kind of challenge are being told "you and your subscription are not wanted".

This is the most non self-aware post I've seen in awhile; like a literal giant red flag that you don't know what you're talking about, to the point where I also know *you* know that you don't know what you're talking about and was just winging it in the hopes that you were correct.

The only expansion DT is harder than IMO is Endwalker. SHB, Stormblood, ARR are all more difficult or at the very least comparable and don't EVEN get me started on Heavensward. If you're going to try to feign knowledge on something to try and make a point, atleast do the tiniest bit of research first.

[Caitamm]

This is the most non self-aware post I've seen in awhile; like a literal giant red flag that you don't know what you're talking about, to the point where I also know *you* know that you don't know what you're talking about and was just winging it in the hopes that you were correct.

The only expansion DT is harder than IMO is Endwalker. SHB, Stormblood, ARR are all more difficult or at the very least comparable and don't EVEN get me started on Heavensward. If you're going to try to feign knowledge on something to try and make a point, atleast do the tiniest bit of research first.

Unfortunately, the person you are replying to can't be argued with. In a different thread they said they were confident that well over 10% of players are unhappy with current content. In the same sentence, they acknowledged that the statement was also pure speculation.