The difficulty of normal content is great as is. Do not revert them.

[Alice_Rivers]

Pray tell, why does "casual" or "MSQ" have to be synonymous with "braindead"? Even at level 70+? People aren't wrong when they say that Stone Vigil and especially Stone Vigil (Hard) W2W are harder than a lot of level 60-90 content. I don't believe the level range should merely represent a power level, it should be reasonable to expect some level of skill scaling as people learn things throughout their MSQ. I remember when the last boss in Keeper of the Lake could actually wipe parties.

I'm in agreement with the apparent majority, engaging gameplay is good, DT's dungeons are generally good. As a healer I actually want a reason to press my buttons, DT especially during my initial leveling experience gave me that and it was great. The raids still give me that and it's great. Am I gonna go savage? No, I'm not that level of player and my memory sucks too much. But yes, it's years past time we demanded people actually engage their brains and press their buttons. I still see too many "level 100" tanks that do not use mitigations, the other day I even watched a "level 100" WHM spamming cure in DT rather than using their kit. Why should we put up with that? Why should we tailor the game for these people? The devs put the abilities in the game, it's reasonable to expect us to use them, if people refuse to read or use their skills then the content SHOULD punish them, it's called learning.

[TDawnstar]

Pray tell, why does "casual" or "MSQ" have to be synonymous with "braindead"?

Because it doesn't have to be braindead. But SE shot themselves in the head by removing everything everything else but encounter mechanics. They removed CCs (well, they are still there), they made tanks completely independent of healers, etc.
So, the only thing they can act on to make a fight harder is to make more (or less) telegraphed mechanics and make them more or less punishing.

People aren't wrong when they say that Stone Vigil and especially Stone Vigil (Hard) W2W are harder than a lot of level 60-90 content.

It may be a bit less true now, but pre-EW number squish, Stone Vigil was non-stop healing spam, and it was fun, if stressful.

Why should we put up with that? Why should we tailor the game for these people? The devs put the abilities in the game, it's reasonable to expect us to use them,

IMHO, that is because the class progression for most ARR jobs is backwards. For WHM, lily should never have been lvl 52, it should be something you get on lvl 10 as soon as you get your other healing buttons (okay, maybe lvl 30). So that when someone starts a CNJ at lvl 1, they don't have to spend 52 levels spamming cure II.

[Alice_Rivers]

Because it doesn't have to be braindead. But SE shot themselves in the head by removing everything everything else but encounter mechanics. They removed CCs (well, they are still there), they made tanks completely independent of healers, etc.
So, the only thing they can act on to make a fight harder is to make more (or less) telegraphed mechanics and make them more or less punishing.

In other words there's plenty of room to improve the game's difficulty and engagement factor, the infrastructure is already there, they need only use it. But tell me, if MSQ content "doesn't have to be braindead", why is it that you appear to be advocating exactly that?

IMHO, that is because the class progression for most ARR jobs is backwards. For WHM, lily should never have been lvl 52, it should be something you get on lvl 10 as soon as you get your other healing buttons (okay, maybe lvl 30). So that when someone starts a CNJ at lvl 1, they don't have to spend 52 levels spamming cure II.

Lilies being level 52 is perfectly reasonable from my standpoint. You spend level 15 to 30 learning how to heal (and preferably mix in some damage too), level 30-50 with cure 2 learning to be more measured, to judge when and how much to heal, then at level 52 they give you your first instant cast GCD heal. I consider it to be good pacing, it fits with your character learning more white magic, it fits a reasonable pacing of actual player skill. What it is not is an excuse to just press cure 1 or 2, worse at level 80+ when you should be versed with Asylum, Tetragrammaton, Benediction, Divine Benison and doing weaves like Regen > Divine Benison > Afflatus Solace > Tetragammaton if things are really dire.

[TDawnstar]

In other words there's plenty of room to improve the game's difficulty and engagement factor, the infrastructure is already there, they need only use it. But tell me, if MSQ content "doesn't have to be braindead", why is it that you appear to be advocating exactly that?

Me? I'm among the minority on the forum who thinks EW dungeons and raids were fine. If anything, I think that DT trials have been easier to handle than EW trials, because I still have PTSD from Zodiark and to lesser extent Meteion.

But that's details, the issue is that SE needs to stop base everything on mechanics and bring back player power and skills. Then, difficult content will be able to get gated by these as well, not just by reaction speed and memorization of patterns.

[Alice_Rivers]

I see, personally I didn't have much of a problem with either of those trials outside of extremes, but it's good that we can agree that pattern memorization shouldn't be everything. I would like to see more control mechanics but that would also require them to go back and force people to learn how interrupts work, the number of times the master of the hyperboreia has completed that cast is a testament to that.

Fundamentally I want the game a little harder, I don't have lightning reflexes and my memory hates important information like Garleans hate Eorzeans, hence I don't attempt savage content. But then, as we've established here, memory and reflexes are not the only form of difficulty or even the only kind the game is built for.

[TDawnstar]

I see, personally I didn't have much of a problem with either of those trials outside of extremes, but it's good that we can agree that pattern memorization shouldn't be everything. I would like to see more control mechanics but that would also require them to go back and force people to learn how interrupts work, the number of times the master of the hyperboreia has completed that cast is a testament to that.

Oh dear, don't even get me started about interrupts (or lack thereof). But yes, that's typically something that could be added to bosses (reminds me of Essence of Souls in WoW, where you had to kick everything to prevent your tank from getting a dmg debuff. Things like add phases, cleaves etc. also used to be a thing back in ARR/HW, but then were essentially phased out from the raids. Everthing is about solving the visual puzzles at this point, which is somewhat sad, I suppose.

[jdtuggey]

But that's details, the issue is that SE needs to stop base everything on mechanics and bring back player power and skills. Then, difficult content will be able to get gated by these as well, not just by reaction speed and memorization of patterns.

By player power, do you mean gear ? Like, I play this game on and off, I sub for 3 months, then I unsub for 3 more, come back for 3 months, that sort of pattern.
Having a system where I need to spend significant time "catching up" each time I resub would make resubbing a lot less appealing.

Player skills, well... If you mean talent, I'd classify being able to handle mechanics and push decent dps is skill ?
Like, you'd know this if you did savage/ult prog, but not only you need to handle the mechanics there, you need to push dps hard as much as you can, while moving, often, while preparing for the next mechanic.
There's a lot of space between the floor of the casual content and the floor to prog Savage and especially ultimates ? I'd call that gap "skill" ? Like, execution actually matters there.
Even in dungeons, like, memorizing the patterns is the low bar, you can set yourself a higher bar and do "push dps hard as much as you can, even while moving, while preparing for the next mechanic", you'll make a better experience for everyone in your party, and it certainly does look to me like there's a skill gap even in that niche, some players definitely do a lot better than other players in dungeons, even if both players execute mechanics perfectly and know the patterns perfectly. And well, if your party plays well enough, you might even be rewarded by having less mechanics to deal with.
If you mean buttons on your hotbar, don't we have enough ? :P

How would you even define skill if not how I defined it there ?

[TDawnstar]

By player power, do you mean gear ? Like, I play this game on and off, I sub for 3 months, then I unsub for 3 more, come back for 3 months, that sort of pattern.

Not just gear (because gear is subject to change), but things like attribute points, skill points, mastery tracks and passive points (see GW2), unlockable talent trees, etc. Anything that adds power but not necessarily being gear-based.

Having a system where I need to spend significant time "catching up" each time I resub would make resubbing a lot less appealing.

That is totally understandable and fair. But in the long run, the instant catch-up is IMHO doing more harm than good for the overall health of the game.

Double down and go harder if anything. I want more midcore to bridge the difficulty tiers.

Oh, I think that FFXIV absolutely needs more midcore content, don't get me wrong. But whether a) the normal raids should be it and b) whether they should be accessible via DF rather than PF is another question entirely.

[jdtuggey]

Not just gear (because gear is subject to change), but things like attribute points, skill points, mastery tracks and passive points (see GW2), unlockable talent trees, etc. Anything that adds power but not necessarily being gear-based.

We're still making choices like that. I'm doing better on my summoner since I adjusted my spell speed for optimal alignment of my cooldowns.
They're less significant than many other mmo, but also they're not nearly as insignificant as you think ?

Concerning talent trees, there was this really good MMO that really emphasized talent trees like... ~10-15 years ago ?
It was called Rift. Man I loved that game, you could match 3 talent trees out of a selection of trees that were available to your class.
I loved theorycrafting all kind of weird builds. The reality though is that most people just googled optimal builds and the game fell into obscurity despite having pretty great wow-style content and a fair amount of budget at its prime.
SWTOR also has talent trees, and it's fairly successful and long running, but the talent trees are an afterthought, and they've been simplifying them over the years because players don't want to engage with that.
Players just want an optimal tree, so might as well give the benefits of an optimal tree to everybody. :P

That is totally understandable and fair. But in the long run, the instant catch-up is IMHO doing more harm than good for the overall health of the game.

I think Square has data on this, and their choices to move away from that kind of system was informed by that.
I haven't seen a single MMO like this do as well as FFXIV does ? Not even wow at this point. Though if you want that, I think Wow or GW2 can fit that need pretty neatly.
(To be fair, wow probably has catch-up mechanics too at this point... Because you know... I think players prefer that)
Like, FFXIV has been working like this for a very long time, and it's only growing in popularity ? (Speaking as general trend, there's highs and lows ofc)

Oh, I think that FFXIV absolutely needs more midcore content, don't get me wrong. But whether a) the normal raids should be it and b) whether they should be accessible via DF rather than PF is another question entirely.

Or maybe Normal Raids via duty finder is that, and you just need to give a moment for the expansion to land, for people to learn and adapt to it, for gear to be released (doesn't matter if you don't do savage, people around you will start to do the content and lift you up with them) and other stuff like that to happen.

Like, there's some things that could be added to ffxiv to make the experience more interesting, and I'd love to have this discussion, but not in the context that ffxiv is not okay and needs to change.
And even less in the context that it needs to be like other X game. It's fine, lol, even after dawntrail. ;p