The many writing missteps of Dawntrain.

[Fawkes]

I think Kettleman has a single line of dialogue saying he was knocked out and his stones were taken, but it happens a while after he wanders back into the MSQ so it's totally reasonable to think it was weird. They definitely made it look like he was murdered.


I thought it was weird how Bakool Ja Ja got one punch man'd by Zoraal Ja, and Zoraal Ja's advisor guy was like "he might prove useful", and then Bakool Ja Ja starts doing a bunch of nonsense that isn't going to help him win like releasing the bird, and apparently running away after annoying Koana in that mountain dungeon instead of just walking to the top and getting a free stone. So you'd think the pay off would be that Zoraal Ja was making him do that, but it never comes up again and he was just doing stupid stuff on his own I guess?

[PercibelTheren]

I think Kettleman has a single line of dialogue saying he was knocked out and his stones were taken, but it happens a while after he wanders back into the MSQ so it's totally reasonable to think it was weird. They definitely made it look like he was murdered.

I remember being extremely confused when he showed up because the cutscene made me believe he had been murdered.

[Aurumis]

I think Kettleman has a single line of dialogue saying he was knocked out and his stones were taken, but it happens a while after he wanders back into the MSQ so it's totally reasonable to think it was weird. They definitely made it look like he was murdered.


I thought it was weird how Bakool Ja Ja got one punch man'd by Zoraal Ja, and Zoraal Ja's advisor guy was like "he might prove useful", and then Bakool Ja Ja starts doing a bunch of nonsense that isn't going to help him win like releasing the bird, and apparently running away after annoying Koana in that mountain dungeon instead of just walking to the top and getting a free stone. So you'd think the pay off would be that Zoraal Ja was making him do that, but it never comes up again and he was just doing stupid stuff on his own I guess?

I thought he was murdered because of how the scene is done and nobody talking about what happened to him xD he comes by and talks about it being too normal, not panicked or something coming before something happened. I mean he had time to recover and send a messenger to inform the dawnservants but he just did nothing...

[Xieldras]

The fact that there is no setup for the future expansions' own MSQ either. We went from a vacation being the maid to a political contestant, to a world-ending scenario within the same expac. There was no time to properly breathe between Endwalker and this one, no setup to be explored in 8.0. No mystery to be unearthed in the future. Even fanfiction writers know to put down some breadcrumbs for future chapters.

This plus Wuk Lamat tells me there is some fear in having player numbers dip after the climax we had last expansion (which was 10 years of buildup), so they had to pull out the big stops to keep players around.

[Daralii]

The fact that there is no setup for the future expansions' own MSQ either. We went from a vacation being the maid to a political contestant, to a world-ending scenario within the same expac. There was no time to properly breathe between Endwalker and this one, no setup to be explored in 8.0. No mystery to be unearthed in the future. Even fanfiction writers know to put down some breadcrumbs for future chapters.

This plus Wuk Lamat tells me there is some fear in having player numbers dip after the climax we had last expansion (which was 10 years of buildup), so they had to pull out the big stops to keep players around.

The only real breadcrumbs at this point are Meracydia and the hourglass. The former has obviously been in the background for a long time and is the last remaining thing on Emet's bucket list of things for us to do, and unless the writers forgot the order of Calamities, the latter seems able to go to any shard at any point in time.

[Zabuza]

Can we add how hamfisted "dissenting" dialogue choice were handled this go around?
In the past, while obviously leading to us doing what the plot wanted anyway, they at least got different or shocked reactions and served as a way of expressing our characters discontent with what plot dictates the next step ought to be.
This time they often get immediately downplayed and twisted into something completely different from your selection to keep up the happy go lucky atmosphere or feel like a multiple choice quiz where "wrong" answers give you the feedback that they're wrong and are subsequently removed from the selection until you either click on the "correct" choice or it's the only one left to pick so the game can go on like that was your heartfelt initial reply in the first place. At that point why bother?

Cahciua: We have to kill all the Endless to make Sphene sad.

WoL: What? I don't want to participate in a genocide.

Cahciua: Don't worry. They're not real people.

WoL: But I fought against someone who in the past who espoused that line of thinking. Killing innocents is wrong.

Cahciua stares at you intensely.

WoL: Yes bunny mom. We'll kill all the Endless bunny mom. I'm sorry bunny mom.

Cahciua: Yes, exactly! Such a great idea you came up with. Glad we're on the same page.

They explained that: after struggling against the ice for 80 years, it's batteries are almost empty. It's basically half dead and just wants out to recharge. We kill it in it's half dead state.

What was the point of hyping it up as being so powerful then if it wasn't going to do any damage? It couldn't even kill some random giant NPCs? Why do we need a group of 8 powerful warriors to take it down if it's not strong enough to even kill a single person? This story does a lot of setup and hype at certain points only for it to turn into a complete non-payoff in the end.

That, at least, is not a misstep.
They are TRAPPED inside a tiny dome with a static version of some dumb ass disneyland.

Yah, after 400 years, I too would beg the WoL to turn that forkin' terminal off. That is NOT an existence worth living, especially considering the cost.

Debatable. Are they aware and remembering what is happening to them the entire 400 years? To what extent are they aware and to what extent do they match the people whose memories they are based off of? Either way we had no right to turn off the terminals and the game frames it as a mercy killing through Cahciua but then frames it in a darker way once you strip the area barren of life.

You can add,

- When reaching living memory, there is this quest were you have to get his ring for a guy that want to asks the women he loved to marry her, but he died before her. sHe tells us he died before her, and she didn't marry anyone after that. Except she is not supposed to remember him then since he had they both had a device, or they wouldn't be endless, and she should have forgotten him when he died, and it's a memory without him that should have been archived.

- The society where you forget your parents, children, loved ones is presented as something beneficial and sustainable, yet every quest and side quest that talks about that show how disfonctionnal it is, and how those people benefits from remembering them. All this seems more like a façade than something than something thought through.

- The game tells us endless are not humans, then spends 3 hours showing us how human they are. Not only the game show you the opposite of its discourse, but for a game insist on the "You don't always die when you physically die", that does not sit very well. It sends you the message "being alive is not about your state of consciousness nor ability to think for yourself", which make a lot of Ultima Thule guys not alive, I guess.



Don't you think this deserved to be made clearer? I'm pretty sure the guy that wanted to ask his the woman he loved was pretty unhappy about disappearing without a say. Don't you think it's kinda hard to believe that in 400 years, nobody expressed that to anyone, and just rolled with it, and when you arrive, suddenly everyone is okay with dying? To me it's a facility to not make the player feel bad about what's happening. The whole thing deserved a better development, but there was no time.

-I interpreted this as the woman didn't marry anyone else because 'power of love'. Even though she didn't remember him... a subconscious impulse remained. It would be right up these writers' alley. Either way, you are right that is another example of poor writing since it isn't explained at all and it goes contrary to what the writers had said before.

-To be fair, Wuk Lumat, who is typically positive and accepting of other cultures, called Sphene's culture 'disturbing'. I didn't do the side quests. But this is yet another example of mixed messaging along with the point you made after this.

-This was partly mentioned in one of my points in the OP.

Yes, they all express being okay with dying when we arrive and yes, it is all done for the express purpose of trying to make us, the person sitting behind the screen, feel okay with deleting these people. It is very strange when Shadowbringers told us that 'genocide is not okay, no matter how understandable the reasoning' to Dawntrail's 'No matter how unsettling it is, there are certain circumstances in which genocide is okay.'

I disagree on bakool jaja having no foreshadowing, there were multiple small lines from him beforehand where he goes "I won't let them die in vain" or "we must retreat, for the sake of our kin"
I'd argue bakool jaja is the best written character in the expac

Then why does he so enjoy bullying Wuk Lumat? How does that further his cause? Why release Valigarmanda, a beast that could have very well ruined Tural? Don't get me wrong, I liked the scene where he poured his heart out, but given some of his previous acts and behavior, it seems to have run contrary to his previous character.

[Daralii]

Yes, they all express being okay with dying when we arrive and yes, it is all done for the express purpose of trying to make us, the person sitting behind the screen, feel okay with deleting these people. It is very strange when Shadowbringers told us that 'genocide is not okay, no matter how understandable the reasoning' to Dawntrail's 'No matter how unsettling it is, there are certain circumstances in which genocide is okay.'

Endwalker also had a fair amount of "artificial recreations of lives are still lives" in the Omicron quests. The idea of artificial life in general still counting as life goes back to at least Stormblood with Alpha and Omega's storyline, further back still if you want to count examples like the ixal being Allagan creations.

[TheMightyMollusk]

Endwalker also had a fair amount of "artificial recreations of lives are still lives" in the Omicron quests. The idea of artificial life in general still counting as life goes back to at least Stormblood with Alpha and Omega's storyline, further back still if you want to count examples like the ixal being Allagan creations.

The Ixal and the recreated peoples in Endwalker aren't setting out to conquer other worlds and consume their life force to prolong their existence. Seems like a pretty big thing to leave out of the comparison.

[Granyala]

What was the point of hyping it up as being so powerful then if it wasn't going to do any damage? It couldn't even kill some random giant NPCs? Why do we need a group of 8 powerful warriors to take it down if it's not strong enough to even kill a single person? This story does a lot of setup and hype at certain points only for it to turn into a complete non-payoff in the end.

Because it wasn't trying to kill any Yok Huy?!
Valigarmanda was well aware of the fact that it would not stand a chance in it's current condition, should it have to fight in earnest.
So flight to recoup ASAP was the only thing on it's mind. few Yok Huy gettin a tan was incidental to negating the ice magic.
It wasn't supposed to be an attack.

I'm going to reach a bit and say there was no real MC in that story.

The funny thing is. Genshin often get's flak (sometimes rightfully) that it has a great story but terrible storytelling and here we are. Discussing how ff14 can learn from it.

I concur, in fact I already stated something similar.

Genshin's main story related problem is the break-neck 6 week release cadence. The DEVs just don't have the time to make fancy combat encounters (not really possible in a Gacha game anyway) and elaborate cutscenes. So most of the storytelling is "characters talking about stuff" instead of the game "showing us stuff" or "letting us play stuff".
Too much "tell" and not enough "show" is the main criticism I've read.

Unfortunately, I feel that Dawntrail walked into the same trap, so to speak. Quite a few moments in the story would have warranted solo duties and actual gameplay instead of a brief showing in a cutscene.

[Zabuza]

Because it wasn't trying to kill any Yok Huy?!
Valigarmanda was well aware of the fact that it would not stand a chance in it's current condition, should it have to fight in earnest.
So flight to recoup ASAP was the only thing on it's mind. few Yok Huy gettin a tan was incidental to negating the ice magic.
It wasn't supposed to be an attack.

It came across as more of a child's anime scene similar to 'we had a massive explosion but luckily, no one died!' It took me out of my immersion and made me believe the writers just wanted to unleash the beast but find a way for it not to kill anyone, even though they had previously been repeatedly hyping it up as being a deadly and dangerous creature. So they came up with this whole excuse of 'oh, he's weakened and needs to replenish.' The whole thing was very anticlimatic after all the hype. Not a plothole, sure. But it turned out to be something hyped for no reason. A complete non-payoff.

There is no excuse for you. The point is that he, and virtually everyone else, was clearly, obviously happy with ceasing to be. I'm no fan of the Dawntrail writing or story; it's not great. But the writing made it clear that the endless were fine with dying. People wading around in a mire of headcanon because they don't think they *should have* been fine with dying should be complaining about the writing, not making up garbage interpretations of the story.

This was also immersion breaking and I wouldn't blame some for being frustrated over this. It is not realistic for everyone there to be okay with dying and it screams that the writers just wanted to force us to be okay with the genocide because they are forcing us to do it.