Did tanks really need more healing

[Ramiee]

I have never seen a launch peppered by so much “should tanks solo the boss if the rest of a party dies” discussion

An inbuilt 80% damage reduction and ridiculous sustain amazingly is not healthy for the game

Honestly it ruins the 92 abilities too. If the short CDs weren't so strong these massive buffs every 2 mins would probably feel level 90-100 worthy. But because short CDs especially on warrior are so powerful pretty much all CD mit upgrades feel like nothing because what really is there to add.

[Conando]

It feels powerful enough on Paladin and GNB I feel, but Damnation's bonus effect is pretty redundant, but I suppose what are you going to add when Warrior already has 2 shields, healing on hit, etc.

[ZUZ]

But then the problem doesn't comes from the tanks and the question can be asked to the healer role as well.
What's the point of focusing on healers healing if the healing requirements is low?

The problem is not limited to dungeons but raid 24 and extreme. Seriously, raid 24 as Sage has been Dosis, Kerachole and res/Ixochole people who takes avoidable aoes.
XIV's casual content design is too casual, even if tanks or DPS had no healing the problem would remain the same.

It's not the sustain that needs a nerf, it's the incoming damages that needs a buff.

Incoming damage is too low in casual content. This is a problem for the tanks as well and I'm really baffled how so many healers want to strip another role of their buttons when the problem is the incoming damage. Party stacks and raidwides happen too infrequently and do close to no damage.

As a tank player, I would be disappointed if they took away the tank's ability to self-sustain. I would much rather casual content to ramp up the incoming damage and make casual bosses do heavy hitting autos. All in the effort of making the tank and healer role necessary. You can do casual content with just DPS. This is not a tank problem or a healer problem.

It's a casual content design problem. When I play as healer, I sit on my aoe healing between and during mob pulls because it is not necessary. I want them to add party stacks, raidwides, and even enumerations to justify all the aoe healing buttons that sit dead on the hotbar unless you are doing higher end content.

And again, the dungeon bosses just don't auto hard enough.

[Supersnow845]

Incoming damage is too low in casual content. This is a problem for the tanks as well and I'm really baffled how so many healers want to strip another role of their buttons when the problem is the incoming damage. Party stacks and raidwides happen too infrequently and do close to no damage.

As a tank player, I would be disappointed if they took away the tank's ability to self-sustain. I would much rather casual content to ramp up the incoming damage and make casual bosses do heavy hitting autos. All in the effort of making the tank and healer role necessary. You can do casual content with just DPS. This is not a tank problem or a healer problem.

It's a casual content design problem. When I play as healer, I sit on my aoe healing between and during mob pulls because it is not necessary. I want them to add party stacks, raidwides, and even enumerations to justify all the aoe healing buttons that sit dead on the hotbar unless you are doing higher end content.

And again, the dungeon bosses just don't auto hard enough.

If the choice is between

A) buff the bosses to reduce the effectiveness of self sustain
B) nerf the self sustain

One of these only affects future content that they explicitly balance it around, the other affects all content, the one that affects all content also affects savage fights where single target healing on the tank is also under-utilised

The idea that “don’t nerf buff everything else to compensate” just achieves the same thing as a nerf with 8,000 potential failure points introduced and the chance the balance will be way off

Tanks either need to lose their excessive sustain or they need to lose their inbuilt 80% damage down, EXISITING casual content isn’t fixed by buffing future casual content to compensate for the buffs they keep giving tanks

[Supersnow845]

Side note before main point can you stop randomly emboldening things, it adds nothing to your argument

Tanks cannot heal the party- yeah divine veil, shake it off and the shared mitigation says otherwise, it’s is incredibly easy to keep up 3 DPS as a WAR or a PLD, they 100% can play off healer and that’s part of the problem. They can easily share their mits because they don’t need them because they have such massive inbuilt defence.

They never up damage because they are too scared of the party relying on the healer, that’s the problem, “up damage in dungeons” isn’t a solution because they simply will not go there, because they hate the idea of the party being reliant on the healer (never mind the DPS are reliant on the healer to not end up watching the tank solo the boss)

[ZUZ]

Dungeon design is poor for healers BECAUSE tanks are all three roles in one with an 80% inbuilt damage reduction leaving healers with their 1 button spam

Having autos punch the tank hard enough to overcome their huge self healing is just nerfing the self healing by proxy, but actually nerfing the self healing changes old content to be more in line as well

This is just not true. Tanks cannot replace the healer role. Tanks cannot heal the party, nor can they esuna debuffs, nor can they revive other players. I'm not only suggesting to have the bosses hit harder but to also increase the raid wide damage and the frequency of it. Healers have more than just single-target healing. A boss's raidwide with no feint, addle, or reprisal, will still do no damage and all I have to do as sage is hit 1 button on my hotbar to heal everyone to full.

Directly nerfing the self-sustain would lead to an overall dull dungeon experience. When was the last time you used esuna in a dungeon? I can tell you I did it once earlier today and I didn't have to because that debuff lasted 5-7 seconds. Why aren't there more mechanics that depend on the healer? This game hand holds the healer role so much its infuriating to play the healer job in casual content.

Why aren't there more doom mechanics that I can esuna?

Why do debuffs that are esunable last less than 10 seconds?

Why aren't there more mechanics like White Hole where the party needs to be max health or they die.


The casual content design effectively makes all the roles useless.

There is no DPS check in dungeons, there is no heal check in dungeons, there is no tank check in dungeons. The bosses in dungeons pose no real danger to the main threat that any role could tank the boss because it has no heavy hitting autos or threatening tankbusters.

Dawntrail's dungeons have been a major improvement but if we look at the very first dungeon we are still lacking the things that would make bringing 1 of each role necessary.

Again, nerfing the tank's self-sustain doesn't solve the problem that you can still clear the dungeons with 4 dps or 4 healers or even 4 tanks.

[ZUZ]

Side note its not to "add to my argument". It's to improve the readability of the text for my sake and others


It's just as easy to keep up 3 DPS with a red mage as it is to keep up 3 healer with... any other role.

I agree that them being scared of relying on the healer is a problem but there are more interesting ways of making the healer role more integral to party composition in casual content. Even if they do not up the damage they can still add debuffs and mechanics that rely on the healer.

If you are taking shake it off and divine veil at face value, sure they have cure potency, but nobody is using those skills to heal the party. They use those skills to mitigate damage. Are you seriously expecting a tank to heal the party to max health? To even heal them efficiently at all?

Removing the self-sustain just isn't a solution when its an appeal to the tank class and very much needed in high-end content.

The healer role isn't even badly designed. The content you are doing has no need for a healer. There is no tank who is reviving the party, healing the party in a meaningful way, or even removing dangerous debuffs. No tanks are not doing your role for you. Dungeons specifically, have no reason to adhere to a strict 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps party compostion.

[Mikey_R]

Just as a note, I have been levelling Sage for the role quests and whilst Healer is my weakest role, even I have noticed a massive difference between healing a Dark Knight compared to a Gunbreaker or Paladin (not had the Warrior Pleasure yet).

It could be the fact I have just had bad Dark Knights (my sample size is small, 2 DRK, 2 PLD and 1 GNB), but for less experienced healers, the sudden shift between healing a Dark Knight compared to the others is going to be quite jarring.

[Derio]

Just as a note, I have been levelling Sage for the role quests and whilst Healer is my weakest role, even I have noticed a massive difference between healing a Dark Knight compared to a Gunbreaker or Paladin (not had the Warrior Pleasure yet).

It could be the fact I have just had bad Dark Knights (my sample size is small, 2 DRK, 2 PLD and 1 GNB), but for less experienced healers, the sudden shift between healing a Dark Knight compared to the others is going to be quite jarring.

It is a night and day difference between DRK and other tanks. DRK only has 2 self sustain options in its kit. One is on a 1 minute timer and the other is on a 2 minute timer assuming they are lvl 92 and above.

The OP was referring to GNB, PLD and WAR self sustain which is crazy good when compared to DRK. The real question is do you nerf the other tanks to DRK level or do you buff DRK. I know for WHM once adds get immune to stun and DRK TBN gets broken you have to GCD heal the DRK.

[Supersnow845]

Side note its not to "add to my argument". It's to improve the readability of the text for my sake and others


It's just as easy to keep up 3 DPS with a red mage as it is to keep up 3 healer with... any other role.

I agree that them being scared of relying on the healer is a problem but there are more interesting ways of making the healer role more integral to party composition in casual content. Even if they do not up the damage they can still add debuffs and mechanics that rely on the healer.

If you are taking shake it off and divine veil at face value, sure they have cure potency, but nobody is using those skills to heal the party. They use those skills to mitigate damage. Are you seriously expecting a tank to heal the party to max health? To even heal them efficiently at all?

Removing the self-sustain just isn't a solution when its an appeal to the tank class and very much needed in high-end content.

The healer role isn't even badly designed. The content you are doing has no need for a healer. There is no tank who is reviving the party, healing the party in a meaningful way, or even removing dangerous debuffs. No tanks are not doing your role for you. Dungeons specifically, have no reason to adhere to a strict 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps party compostion.

You are talking out of both sides of your mouth here

A tank can’t heal because there is only limited potency on their heals (never mind their shareable mits) but then also the game doesn’t put out enough damage. With the same put out the tanks 100% can keep the party up and unlike RDM who loses half their damage to vercure the party the tanks lose absolutely nothing to do this

The tanks are better single target healers than the healers because their heals have zero downsides and have excessively high potency

Tank sustain isn’t even needed in savage, the enemies simply do not hit the tank hard enough or frequent enough to need the amount of self healing they have, they need the mitigation but not the healing

This plays into your “just add debuffs and buffs that work with the healer”. I DONT WANT TO BE A BUFF BOT SO YOU CAN HEAL I want to actually be the role I signed up for as a healer. Do you see how incredibly selfish it is to say “no I like being a better healer than you as a tank you can do something else instead of healing” that’s just such a flawed concept especially when paired with the fact that healers kits are 90% healing. Why is the tank a better healer than I when 90% of my kit is healing

You don’t seem to see that “functionally useful healing” and “raw healing potential” are two totally different things, SIO is incredibly overpowered because it’s up almost as often as casual content actually puts out damage and it’s potency exceeds healer heals and it has zero downside. Even if the damage is a little more frequent just pop nascent flash on someone else and boom they are back to full. Healers shouldn’t be reduced to rezz bots and esuna bots because the tank wants to be a healer as well

Let’s also not forget when the healer does go down the immortal tank just ignores them anyway, no “oh the healer is dead the DPS will go soon I should wipe” it’s “well guess it’s solo time”

Tanks should be focusing on protecting the healer, not doing the healers job for them