Feedback: Dawntrail MSQ thoughts

[Alenore]

Gosh I knew i shouldn't have included that part. You completely dodged the rest though.

You also tried to avoid answering the question of "Why is Wuk Lamat so disliked?" (see the Steam reviews if you think shes's popular).
I dont wanna hear why you LIKE her.

Apologies, I thought that was a rhetorical question. However my answer still stands, most peopleactually don't care about her and enjoy Dawntrail well enough. For the sake of the argument, I'll answer.

But first, I have to correct something: I don't "like" her, I'm absolutely neutral about her. She's a character I've been following, just like I've been following Ysayle, Estinien and Alphinaud in HW, or Lyse, Gosetsu, Yugiri and Hien in SB. I don't have special ties to her, she's nothing special juste like most of the characters I've mentioned before (bar Alphinaud and Estinien) don't move me a bit.
Why is that? Because she's new. Dawntrail is the start of a new story in unfamiliar land, and new characters are introduced. First and foremost, we get Wuk Lamat. I've described her as growing up, naive, etc... and these are not traits that make me like characters.

You can wonder why I've come at you then? Because while I don't care about her, the reasons you give for disliking her are simply wrong. Just go back to my previous post for a rebutal of your characterization of the character.

But one Wuk Lamat does not Dawntrail make.

The story stands even without her if a random Mamool Ja with 0 lines of dialogue was the one in race to become Dawnservant.
Wuk Lamat is no more annoying than Alphinaud was before he had time to grow, or Ryne, or Zero, or a cast of other FF characters who also, from time to time, take the spotlight and have a lot of dialogue as well.
She's really just a way to drive the story forward, and I can abstract what I think about her and see the bigger picture and the underlying ideas, which I don't feel suffers because of her presence in it.

Without Wuk Lamat, we'd breach the same subject with Bakuul Ja Ja who is misguided, has a terrible father really, but feels like he has the weight of the world on his shoulders because his race feels like they have to create Blessed Siblings. you'll get what you want of that story, for instance that even in a seemingly united society, some people are feeling left out and want to change the status quo even at the cost of their people.

We'd see Zoraal Ja the same way if you pay attention, a misguided son who feels the weight of his father's crown and think he has to prove himself by surpassing his father, and that the ends justify the means.
Or just a big bad with 0 motivation but to be evil if you don't read between the lines.

The same issues would be thrown at us in Alexandria, the same clash of culture about souls and their view on death.

So in the end, Dawntrail wouldn't be really better or worse with or without Wuk Lamat, just like if you removed a character from the previous main cast, you could build around. The story is good, the character is a way to drive it.


Now to answer why I think people dislike her...

I want to her YOUR theory about why other people don't.

Firstly, a lot of people joined during Endwalker or at the end of ShB, so when we were riding on already 6-8 years of story and build up. A bunch of them also either skipped the beginning of the game altogether or skipped cutscenes due to ARR poor reputation.
For a lot of them, this is the first time they experience writers trying to build up something for a new story, and a "summer vacation" expansion obviously feels slooooooow as hell. "Speak to Wuk Lamat" is the "Pray return to the Waking Sands" of the expansion.

Secondly, her english voice actor really doesn't help the character. I know it's more of a voice direction issue, but the fact remains that some scenes are weird. The last fight comes to mind. It doesn't help give a good characterization of the character if she's lifting a giant robotic hand without a hint of strain in her voice. I suspect you had this scene that in a corner of your mind when you said she was a Mary Sue.

Which brings me to: I suspect a large part of the playerbase only follow the MSQ and never either read the secondary quests or speak with NPCs outside of objectives. They're missing on a lot of informations, context, what NPC think about the situations (notably Krile).
But if every quest forced you to speak to every NPC around to see what they thought, people would just quit. The obvious drawback is that people who don't do that are missing on a lot.

Then, there's the (somewhat understandable) feeling she takes a more prominent role in the story compared to the WoL in EW and ShB. I'm not sure I really agree or understand this argument but I've seen it multiple times. This is a MMORPG and the main character will almost always be pointed toward the next big bad to kill, be they lightwardens, primals, ascians or Tural vidraal. I don't feel like my character had less agency in DT than EW or ShB.
So I guess what people mean is "We don't feel like we matter as much as before, it could by anyone else", and while kinda understandable in Endwalker (we go to the First and Elpis on our own), it has never been the case before. We matter when we're slaying gods.

Lastly, and that's more about why people dislike Dawntrail *because* of Wuk Lamat, is that people tend to throw everything to the garbage because they dislike a small part. In this case, Wuk Lamat. For Helldivers 2, Sony accounts. And so on. I daresay most of the reviews (good or bad) were made before people finished MSQ, which the Steam graph would tend to confirm since positive reviews rise way more than negative as time pass and people experience more of the story.



I'll finish with Steam having more positive reviews than negatives, and scrolling through negative review, a lot don't even mention her. So while assuredly divisive, saying that most people hate her is simply wrong. Especially when multiple positive reviews mention how they came to like Wuk Lamat despite being wary at first.
A few comment just from the first page of positive reviews prove people also like her :

the level of vitriol for the main character in ignorance of any other aspects of the story and development of the character over the course of the story lead me to believe a lot of the negativity is not in good faith
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The Vacation and Mentor Role we take on is such a nice palette cleanser!
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Wuk Lamat is the best!
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In my instance, I disliked Wuk Lamat when she first appeared and was overall on the fence. As Dawntrail progresses, Wuk Lamat grew on me overtime as did other new characters.
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Wuk Lamat

[honest_psycho]

- Then, there's the (somewhat understandable) feeling she takes a more prominent role in the story compared to the WoL in EW and ShB.

- ...people tend to throw everything to the garbage because they dislike a small part.

My brother in Hydelin, she is the BIGGEST part of the Story. What are you talking about???

[Astral145]

This msq is by far the worst and so boring. I like the changes to blm but wish they would just get rid of the astral and umbril timers....

Over all not at all happy with the msq or dungeons... I'm just not feeling thos expansion.

I miss SHB... shadow bringers was the best msq over all.

[Cleretic]

Isn't that a problem? That she does ALL of it?

No. That is only a problem for you, and it's largely because you aren't very good at reading this story. there's a good chunk of it that's Krile Story, and an even bigger chunk of it that's Erenville Story (I would argue perhaps too much, Erenville doesn't put forward enough of his own character to feel like his corners of the MSQ get much out of him), and we'd be remiss not to point out that there's a decent amount of Koana Story, too; you know, the character whose entire presence in that second half exists because part of what Wuk Lamat learned in the claimant challenges was that she shouldn't stand alone.

Only I never really saw the part where she truly learned something. All her ideas were validated, all her enterprises were succesfull, her entire philosophy was actually ok from the start. I keep seeing things about development and growth but never really saw said development and growth in the game.
But I see you can go to great lengths to try and justify one single character being shoved down out throats for a whole expansion.

And I'd recommend that you read the story a little closer, too, because there are reasons for that; Wuk Lamat starts with none of the accolades, skills or resources as the other claimants, but every other claimant had major problems, too. Because the idea wasn't for the rite of succession to choose a successor, it was to make one, to put the claimants through challenges that would give them the skills they needed--should they realize that was how they needed to succeed.

The things Wuk Lamat didn't have, she could pick up in the challenge. What she already had was what the other claimants (almost) all lacked, and failed to gain: the ability, and respect, to actually listen to their people, learn about their lives and make allies. Zoraal Ja kept brute-forcing it, and failed when he finally hit a challenge he couldn't solo like a true Soulsborne tryhard; Bakool Ja Ja kept refusing to respect the challenge himself and cheated as much as possible; and Koana learned better by the end, but spent several early challenges deciding on his solution right from the start and refusing to learn why it might not work. In contrast, Wuk Lamat's ideas were 'always successful' because her base idea was always "I don't know jack crap about this problem; I'm gonna ask someone who does." And it turns out that openness and humility was core to succeeding; if the rite of succession's whole point was to bring together claimants with incomplete toolboxes and give them the chance to get the whole set, then the person best equipped to do it is the one whose tool is 'ask other people with tools'. Hell, it's why we're here at all; Wuk Lamat knows she can't fight as well as the others, so she got someone who can. There's a reason none of the others would have anything to do with us, and there's also a reason why all those guys lost.

If you want to know what her actual journey was, though, you're almost right, not all of those tools of leadership were necessary; it doesn't matter that Wuk Lamat learned how to barter from the pelupelu, or that she learned how to make xibraaq pibil. Her actual journey is one of gaining self-confidence, conviction, and how to use the tools she already had. At first, she asks others to help because she has a low self-image, she's comparing herself to her brothers and falling short (and of course, we'd be remiss not to mention that the other claimants don't ask for help when they fall short; there's a lesson they didn't learn there). By the end, she's asking others for help because she knows that Cahcuia has a way better grasp of Alexandria than she does, and you don't solve a problem by having the solution before you learn what it is. Some of the claimant challenges give her some specific tools with which she approaches things in the future--she reapplies the Feat of Repast with Otis and Gulool Ja, and she handles all of Alexandria like a champ primarily because she learned from the giants--but a lot of it really was just that she had to learn to do what she was already doing with the confidence and presence that a leader needs.

[Astral145]

Or at least allow fire4 and bliz4 refresh timers. It's constantly falling off with these mechanics and gets frustrating. BLM is literally my fave job... but can't run content with it. Yea i think I'm done with this game. Good run though. Peace out.

[honest_psycho]

No. That is only a problem for you, and it's largely because you aren't very good at reading this story.

Ah, so because I think Wuk Lamat got too much screentime, I'm an illiterate buffoon who is to dumb to understand all the nuances and YOU are the enlightened Poet who takes pity on us mere mortals?

Again, you and the other guy just write paragraphs, trying to "educate us un-washed masses", about what everything means, whole comepletely disregarding our main complaint: WUK LAMAT TAKES TOO MUCH SCREEN TIME.

For someone who worshippes the ground, that Wuk Lamats walks on, you do very little do actually understand US.
You know, what Wuk Lamat's character-arc was supposedly all about?

Oh, and please only write one paragraph. I clearly dont have the mental capacity to read and understand more.

[Cleretic]

Ah, so because I think Wuk Lamat got too much screentime, I'm an illiterate buffoon who is to dumb to understand all the nuances and YOU are the enlightened Poet who takes pity on us mere mortals?

Again, you and the other guy just write paragraphs, trying to "educate us un-washed masses", about what everything means, whole comepletely disregarding our main complaint: WUK LAMAT TAKES TOO MUCH SCREEN TIME.

For someone who worshippes the ground, that Wuk Lamats walks on, you do very little do actually understand US.
You know, what Wuk Lamat's character-arc was supposedly all about?

Oh, and please only write one paragraph. I clearly dont have the mental capacity to read and understand more.

I don't have anything else to respond to here, why would I write any more than one line? You didn't like the story, that I don't think you understood very well: congratulations. Want a medal?

[honest_psycho]

Not liking something =/= not understanding.

The problem was not the ideas, but the execution.

Oh, and good job not adressing the issue... again.

[Alenore]

Oh, and good job not adressing the issue... again.

That's rich considering you ignore every argument and point people make since page 1.

[honest_psycho]

That's rich considering you ignore every argument and point people make since page 1.

You were the third person to reply in this thread.
You cited the second person who wrote:

The sad thing is that I actually liked Wuk Lamat when we first met her but they made her so dirty! I saw a graph somewhere where she has practically 70% of the lines, how boring! It became unbearable and I looked like a little dog on a leash behind her! I just hope that the writers put the WoL back in the center of the script and don't forget our other companions, who have been completely forgotten, poor Krile, they promised everything and delivered nothing...

You never adressed:
- the amount of Voicelines WL has.
- that people feel like they ar on a leash
- that Krile's arc felt to short.

For the record, I actually understood the explanations and themes, like the importance of communications, what it takes to be a ruler etc. etc.

The issue is, again, that WL character arc was too long and that she overshadowed every other character, even after the resolution with Zarool Ja.
She should have been relegated to side-character from that point on.

But go ahead. Tell me what I didn't understand about the story.