Feedback: Dawntrail MSQ thoughts

[honest_psycho]

She's definitely my favorite of the 'major' characters, who have to spread their characterization and appeal across pretty much the entire expansion.

But did it have to be the ENTIRE Expansion? Her Arc was pretty much done after she was crowned (or arguably after ZoraalJas Bossfight).
What exactly is her role after that in the story?

The entire conflict about Sphene and Alexandria was about how the few Endless are draining so much either, that they basically have o drain all the shards, destroying all life on them.
This is a problem in the league of what the Worrior of Light and Scions are usually dealing with.
Why is WukLamats so important here? Why was it not Erenville and Krile who supported us against Sphene? They had to delete their parents, they have more emotional "stakes" in this than WukLamat.

Please elaborate why she absolutley HAD to be front and center until the very end, I honestly don't understand.

[Vallavia]

But did it have to be the ENTIRE Expansion? Her Arc was pretty much done after she was crowned (or arguably after ZoraalJas Bossfight).
What exactly is her role after that in the story?

The entire conflict about Sphene and Alexandria was about how the few Endless are draining so much either, that they basically have o drain all the shards, destroying all life on them.
This is a problem in the league of what the Worrior of Light and Scions are usually dealing with.
Why is WukLamats so important here? Why was it not Erenville and Krile who supported us against Sphene? They had to delete their parents, they have more emotional "stakes" in this than WukLamat.

Please elaborate why she absolutley HAD to be front and center until the very end, I honestly don't understand.

Principally, it's because Sphene's philosophy as a ruler directly mirrors Lamat's, and the natural conclusion of her arc is to confront the failings of the logical extremes of that philosophy to better serve her people. Also, I think it would be far more strange if she was directly involved in the plot for 99% of the story and then just evaporates for the final confrontation.

[honest_psycho]

Principally, it's because Sphene's philosophy as a ruler directly mirrors Lamat's, and the natural conclusion of her arc is to confront the failings of the logical extremes of that philosophy to better serve her people. Also, I think it would be far more strange if she was directly involved in the plot for 99% of the story and then just evaporates for the final confrontation.

How does WL philosophy "mirror" that of Sphenes?
Sphene fights for the survival of her people and is willing to kill other worlds for it.
Wuk Lamat fights Spehne for the survivel of HER people and deletes/kills all the Endless.

Or is the "killing of the other" the moral failing you speak of?
Cause imho thats simply a battle for survival, one there is no good or bad side (even WL didnt put blame on Sphene for it).

Or is the "moral failing" that Sphene didn't have sympathy for the shard's which she planned to destroy for survival?
Is WL the "mirror" because she tried to "know" the people she HAS to genocide? Does that make her a "better ruler"?

WL doesnt really have any choice in that regard, the same as Sphene. Both have to do what they must to protect their own people, at the cost of the other side.

Again, if she was a side character, dealing with the "being a ruler part" and with US dealing with the existencial threat, then that would be fine.
But even in the final trial, she HAD to take the spotlight.
Why are WE, the Warrior of Light, even present, when WL does all the important stuff?

[Cleretic]

But did it have to be the ENTIRE Expansion? Her Arc was pretty much done after she was crowned (or arguably after ZoraalJas Bossfight).
What exactly is her role after that in the story?

Yes, it did, because her arc wasn't done after she was crowned.

Putting it simply, up until the point where she was crowned, the story was about Wuk Lamat learning what type of leader she had to be, and how to be it; she wants to be a leader that promotes and celebrates peace, and she learns the nuts and bolts of being a leader across those first three zones.

The last three zones are about her leadership style and technique being put to the test. First, by being put up against raw military force: Zoraal Ja first appears to essentially be the rock to Wuk Lamat's scissors, the exact counter-force that foils her ideals: how do you champion peace if someone else won't stop waging war? If you're forced to fight, how do you?

Then, there's Sphene: like Vallavia said, her approach mirrors Wuk Lamat's instead of opposing it, but also brings it to an extreme; if you've decided you'll fight for your people's right to peace, when do you stop fighting? Where is your line? Because Sphene clearly didn't have one.

There's also a more functional element that, in the second half of the expansion, we see Wuk Lamat use the tools of peace, union and connection that she learned in the first half. Wuk Lamat isn't a ruler that stays back and sits on the throne, she's not the sort of leader that comes to a problem already having an idea of how to solve it, and she's not the sort of diplomat to just ignore the people she's surrounded by. In the last half of the expansion, we see her put into practice everything she learned in the first half, in a way that only works if she's actually there to do all of it.

In fact I've kinda had a thought about that sort of 'two-part' structure of her journey: I feel like every single claimant challenge in the first half of the story has an equivalent to something she does in the second half. I can reflexively think of a few, I'd have to go back over the whole expansion to see if I can find matches for them all.

[CheshCa7]

we see her put into practice everything she learned in the first half, in a way that only works if she's actually there to do all of it.

Only I never really saw the part where she truly learned something. All her ideas were validated, all her enterprises were succesfull, her entire philosophy was actually ok from the start. I keep seeing things about development and growth but never really saw said development and growth in the game.
But I see you can go to great lengths to try and justify one single character being shoved down out throats for a whole expansion.

[honest_psycho]

I agree to an extent with all the explanations so far, but...

In the last half of the expansion, we see her put into practice everything she learned in the first half, in a way that only works if she's actually there to do all of it.

Isn't that a problem? That she does ALL of it?

The main gripe is that WE, the player, and every other side-characters are reduced to specatators.
Erenville's and Krile's arcs resolution were cramped int he last moments, so WL can deal with the "important" problem.

WL philosphy or her personality isnt the problem, its her hogging up all the screentime.

[Alenore]

I don't care about the exact mechanics or about how she defeated Bakool JaJa. I'm talking about that she defeated him AND half an army BY HERSELF. With us just standing besides not doing anything. This is not only plot armor, it lets us, the Warrior of light, look incompetent.

"Let me handle it, they're small fry" => we don't intervene. Like, isn't it pretty much what she asked us to do?

And let me get this straight, you don't care why she was able to defeat them, but you care that she defeated them and find it stupid because there's no justification... Because you don't care about it?
There's a topic on this subforum about arguing in good faith, i suggest reading it.

And why didn't Bakool Ja just kill here right there? No one could have proven it was him, his "smart head" should 100% have made that suggestion.
The fact, that she wasn't killed, is plotarmor.

Yeah, why didn't Bakool Ja Ja kill everybody in their sleep at the inn too, including the daughter of the current queen. Because he's not a cold blooded killer and isn't shown as one, anywhere? He doesn't see Wuk Lamat as even a real competition because she's sheltered. He's only thinking about killing us when he loses his temper, and the Mystic head calms him.
The way he's portrayed in game doesn't match what you're saying.

No, I wanted to know WHY he had that goal in the first place.
We didn't get ANY kind of flashback in his childhood, or any interaction with his dad that would have warranted his anger.

He's the miracle child of an almost legendary ruler who united a whold continent, put an end to a century long feud, locked away a mythical beast supposed to be the strongest being on the continent.
He states his goal as wanting to unite the wholeworld under his banner.
Multiple people states the circumstances of his birth and the fact he's the sole blood heir to the throne weighed heavy on him.
He clearly wanted to prove he could match or even beat his father's prowess.

Also, didn't Krile get a bit of inside of his "dark thoughts" in his introduction?
Why didnt she tell WukLamat "hey, your brother has some dark thoughts, maybe you should try to know him better, like you try to know all the people in Tural, which is kinda the point of this whole fucking story"?

You mean tell Wuk Lamat, the girl who told us she had to win the throne becuase that guy in particular couldn't be allowed to be the next king because he means to bring war to the whole world? She knows.
This is literally why we're in Tural lol.

He was underdeveloped on purpose so that WukLamat doesn't have to "know him better" and just kill him, cause its objecitvely the "good" thing to do for her as the Hero. Imagine if Emet-Selch didnt try to talk to us and just did what he planned to do anyways.

This is a bad argument when, in the same patch, we had Bakuul Ja Ja who was set up as a bad guy, and had Wuk Lamat understand his motivation and accept him.
The difference with Zoraal Ja is he had no real good reason except his own ambition, and doesn't mind killing Turali people, his own Alexandrian people, and his dad to prove he's better. Wuk Lamat considers that as a crossing a line, so did Guluul Ja Ja, and even Gulool Ja agrees that his father is bad and has to be stopped. He was shown as a bad king who neglected his subjects and diverted resources for his war effort instead of helping his citizens.

I'd agree up until she was made Queen.
But then she STILL got the majority of the lines. She was still around for Erenvilles and Kriles arc there she absolutely had to get some lines in for some reason.

I truly wonder why Wuk Lamat, who felt a connection with Sphene and feels some kind of responsibility for the population in Solution 9, would want to confront her and try to change her mind before she commits mass murder.
I think you've made clear that you don't like her, and anything she is shown saying or doing won't find any grace to your eyes. Even during the cutscene where Urianger met Moenbryda's father, we had Loporrits and Thancred talking. I don't see you pesting about that stupid mary sue Livingway who somehow has no flaws and perfect knowledge about space travel.

Isn't it weird that most people, me included, liked ShB/EW, but don't like DT because of WukLamat?
Why do you think that is?

I think you overestimate how many people don't like the expansion, even more so because of a single character.

[AureliaF]

I adored the music, fights, and environments in this expansion, so all my appreciation to those individuals and teams. Tural really felt like a massive continent with so many beautiful biomes and cultures. I loved every bit of that.

But yeah, as for the story that brought us around said environments...

Leaving Wuk Lamat aside for now, I have to stress, I do not at all mind being more in the role of an attache on an initially political/diplomatic mission. It's set up early that we're not front and center here, and that's totally fine. That does not mean that all possibility of warm and fun character moments with... OTHER characters than Wuk Lamat should be essentially erased (exaggerating a bit, but it doesn't feel like it during the story flow).

The Scions, the characters we met in Tuliyollal, Koana, Dad Dawnservant, Erenville, Bakool Ja Ja, and I know I'm forgetting many, these are old and new friends that we had SO few warm moments/lines with. All the dialogue, all the interaction, was just overfocused on Wuk Lamat. We're there to support her bid, yes. But not to the exclusion of all else. The Scions especially, we've been with them for ten years... this is the time to enjoy lots of fun payoff moments of our close friendships. If they're in the expansion, why are they 90% ignoring that the WoL is even there? There was so much potential for good dialogue and connections "in the background" of Wuk Lamat's whole shenanigans that would've made dealing with her more palatable overall. (I don't hate Wuk Lamat at all, I just think she got way, WAY too much of the dialogue for a character that I feel mid about at best.)

I felt that Erenville and Krile had MUCH more interesting stories going on, and yet, not only did they get stuffed into the final act, most of it was just exposition dumped on us in the final moments of the final map. I SO wished that we could have started unravelling threads of Erenville and Krile's respective stories muuuuch much sooner (we get a little of that with Erenville, granted, during that initial section after crossing to Xak Tural). Bakool Ja Ja's "redemption arc" was so rushed and underdeveloped as to make me roll my eyes at its believability. There was some amazing foundation laid for it at his home, but it didn't get nearly the time it deserved.

tl;dr: I don't care about being the center of attention; I care about having deeper interactions with all the characters in an expansion, especially if those characters have majorly important personal investment to the events of the expansion.

[Stol]

I’m not too far into the MSQ of Dawntrail, yet it’s starting out as my least favorite in the FFXIV saga. I started with ARR beta, so it’s been a long road.

The setting is pretty and I love the graphics updates, but the story just isn’t that interesting. The characters talking about diversity several times feels weirdly forced. FFXIV has always had a ton of diversity. Little Lalafells, cat girls, bunnies, and dragons, and people of all colors. Why is this new place suddenly special for that? Seems like real life politics are being rammed into my fantasy world, and none of it is necessary.

[honest_psycho]

I don't see you pesting about that stupid mary sue Livingway who somehow has no flaws and perfect knowledge about space travel.

What in the absolute fuck are you talking about?
What does this un-important support character have to do with Wuk Lamat, who got an entire Expansion dedicated to her?

The issue is not her Personality (which I kinda liked in the EW post content), or her philosophies.
The issue is the fact that the other characters dont get the screentime they deserved, and that WE, the player, get comepletely sidelined. (Read my other comments)

And then you try to build up a strawman of me being a "fan" of some side-character that nobody even cares about?

You also tried to avoid answering the question of "Why is Wuk Lamat so disliked?" (see the Steam reviews if you think shes's popular).
I dont wanna hear why you LIKE her.
I want to her YOUR theory about why other people don't.