Feedback: Dawntrail MSQ thoughts

[CheshCa7]

we see her put into practice everything she learned in the first half, in a way that only works if she's actually there to do all of it.

Only I never really saw the part where she truly learned something. All her ideas were validated, all her enterprises were succesfull, her entire philosophy was actually ok from the start. I keep seeing things about development and growth but never really saw said development and growth in the game.
But I see you can go to great lengths to try and justify one single character being shoved down out throats for a whole expansion.

[Cleretic]

Isn't that a problem? That she does ALL of it?

No. That is only a problem for you, and it's largely because you aren't very good at reading this story. there's a good chunk of it that's Krile Story, and an even bigger chunk of it that's Erenville Story (I would argue perhaps too much, Erenville doesn't put forward enough of his own character to feel like his corners of the MSQ get much out of him), and we'd be remiss not to point out that there's a decent amount of Koana Story, too; you know, the character whose entire presence in that second half exists because part of what Wuk Lamat learned in the claimant challenges was that she shouldn't stand alone.

Only I never really saw the part where she truly learned something. All her ideas were validated, all her enterprises were succesfull, her entire philosophy was actually ok from the start. I keep seeing things about development and growth but never really saw said development and growth in the game.
But I see you can go to great lengths to try and justify one single character being shoved down out throats for a whole expansion.

And I'd recommend that you read the story a little closer, too, because there are reasons for that; Wuk Lamat starts with none of the accolades, skills or resources as the other claimants, but every other claimant had major problems, too. Because the idea wasn't for the rite of succession to choose a successor, it was to make one, to put the claimants through challenges that would give them the skills they needed--should they realize that was how they needed to succeed.

The things Wuk Lamat didn't have, she could pick up in the challenge. What she already had was what the other claimants (almost) all lacked, and failed to gain: the ability, and respect, to actually listen to their people, learn about their lives and make allies. Zoraal Ja kept brute-forcing it, and failed when he finally hit a challenge he couldn't solo like a true Soulsborne tryhard; Bakool Ja Ja kept refusing to respect the challenge himself and cheated as much as possible; and Koana learned better by the end, but spent several early challenges deciding on his solution right from the start and refusing to learn why it might not work. In contrast, Wuk Lamat's ideas were 'always successful' because her base idea was always "I don't know jack crap about this problem; I'm gonna ask someone who does." And it turns out that openness and humility was core to succeeding; if the rite of succession's whole point was to bring together claimants with incomplete toolboxes and give them the chance to get the whole set, then the person best equipped to do it is the one whose tool is 'ask other people with tools'. Hell, it's why we're here at all; Wuk Lamat knows she can't fight as well as the others, so she got someone who can. There's a reason none of the others would have anything to do with us, and there's also a reason why all those guys lost.

If you want to know what her actual journey was, though, you're almost right, not all of those tools of leadership were necessary; it doesn't matter that Wuk Lamat learned how to barter from the pelupelu, or that she learned how to make xibraaq pibil. Her actual journey is one of gaining self-confidence, conviction, and how to use the tools she already had. At first, she asks others to help because she has a low self-image, she's comparing herself to her brothers and falling short (and of course, we'd be remiss not to mention that the other claimants don't ask for help when they fall short; there's a lesson they didn't learn there). By the end, she's asking others for help because she knows that Cahcuia has a way better grasp of Alexandria than she does, and you don't solve a problem by having the solution before you learn what it is. Some of the claimant challenges give her some specific tools with which she approaches things in the future--she reapplies the Feat of Repast with Otis and Gulool Ja, and she handles all of Alexandria like a champ primarily because she learned from the giants--but a lot of it really was just that she had to learn to do what she was already doing with the confidence and presence that a leader needs.

[honest_psycho]

No. That is only a problem for you, and it's largely because you aren't very good at reading this story.

Ah, so because I think Wuk Lamat got too much screentime, I'm an illiterate buffoon who is to dumb to understand all the nuances and YOU are the enlightened Poet who takes pity on us mere mortals?

Again, you and the other guy just write paragraphs, trying to "educate us un-washed masses", about what everything means, whole comepletely disregarding our main complaint: WUK LAMAT TAKES TOO MUCH SCREEN TIME.

For someone who worshippes the ground, that Wuk Lamats walks on, you do very little do actually understand US.
You know, what Wuk Lamat's character-arc was supposedly all about?

Oh, and please only write one paragraph. I clearly dont have the mental capacity to read and understand more.

[Cleretic]

Ah, so because I think Wuk Lamat got too much screentime, I'm an illiterate buffoon who is to dumb to understand all the nuances and YOU are the enlightened Poet who takes pity on us mere mortals?

Again, you and the other guy just write paragraphs, trying to "educate us un-washed masses", about what everything means, whole comepletely disregarding our main complaint: WUK LAMAT TAKES TOO MUCH SCREEN TIME.

For someone who worshippes the ground, that Wuk Lamats walks on, you do very little do actually understand US.
You know, what Wuk Lamat's character-arc was supposedly all about?

Oh, and please only write one paragraph. I clearly dont have the mental capacity to read and understand more.

I don't have anything else to respond to here, why would I write any more than one line? You didn't like the story, that I don't think you understood very well: congratulations. Want a medal?

[HyoMinPark]

No. That is only a problem for you, and it's largely because you aren't very good at reading this story. there's a good chunk of it that's Krile Story, and an even bigger chunk of it that's Erenville Story (I would argue perhaps too much, Erenville doesn't put forward enough of his own character to feel like his corners of the MSQ get much out of him), and we'd be remiss not to point out that there's a decent amount of Koana Story, too

How can you say this when the just the spoken line distribution looks like this:



Even if you want to argue that this is just spoken dialogue, do you seriously think that Erenville and Krile have enough unspoken lines to even compete with Wuk Lamat? Keep in mind she will also have more unspoken lines to add to this tally.

What version of Dawntrail did you play, and where can I find it? Because all I got was the one where Wuk acted like a black hole for any and all characters around her. Even up to the final trial where she shoved herself into that, too. Deus ex machina style.

There was only one character and one story that mattered in this expansion, and it wasn’t Erenville’s or Krile’s. Their stories were ultimately condensed into the last couple of level 100 quests. Erenville had a little bit of the 4th zone, too—but not for long before Wuk Lamat had to be shoehorned into there, too!

I genuinely do not understand how you can say with a straight face that any other character had significant relevance in this story.

[GrizzlyTank]

What version of Dawntrail did you play, and where can I find it? Because all I got was the one where Wuk acted like a black hole for any and all characters around her. Even up to the final trial where she shoved herself into that, too. Deus ex machina style.

It's funny isn't. Both the prominent queens in this story acted like black holes. One for narrative and one as a potential calamity.
--------
Also question regarding Cachiua.

Was she crippled or something before the dome appeared, some time before Erenville went and explore the world? Seeing how she had such massive desire to explore the world, but couldn't.

[Cleretic]

How can you say this when the just the spoken line distribution looks like this:

Did you really graph the entire MSQ to try to make a point, or did someone else do that? That's an impressive level of whining to try to give weight to 'I Don't Like Thing', but really, just not liking the expansion is fine.

I didn't like Shadowbringers all that much, but I'm not about to pretend that a pie chart somehow makes my feelings about it any more legitimate.

Also, all that graph really says is that Wuk Lamat was in a lot of scenes across the entire expansion, and had some dedicated spotlight speeches, which we already know; it's not actually surprising, revealing or damning that she had the most lines in the expansion. What I'd actually like to see is graphs for specific stretches of the MSQ; say, across Yak T'el or Heritage Found, where there's other consistent main characters to compare against, like Sphene or Bakool Ja Ja. Sphene is REALLY high up there for only being in one and a half zones compared to Wuk Lamat's six-plus-the-cities; I think that shines light on the fact that there's some other factors that you're not discussing, and that maybe if we adjust for relative screentime, we'll find far chattier people than Wuk Lamat.

Also question regarding Cachiua.

Was she crippled or something before the dome appeared, some time before Erenville went and explore the world? Seeing how she had such massive desire to explore the world, but couldn't.

I don't think so.

We see her in the flashback at the Cinderfields, she looks perfectly fine. Her feelings more seemed to come from the fact that the world is really big, and at the general era of technology their world has, it's just not physically possible to see all that much of it; remember that Tural doesn't have seafaring boats, and even dirigibles are pretty new. It also seemed like she had family and community responsibilities that prevented her from doing a lot of exploring later in life, which would explain a lot... but also isn't something you bring up while talking to your son who's clearly having very complicated feelings about things relating to you right now.

[HyoMinPark]

Did you really graph the entire MSQ to try to make a point, or did someone else do that? That's an impressive level of whining to try to give weight to 'I Don't Like Thing', but really, just not liking the expansion is fine.

No. That was someone else’s doing to illustrate the point of contention a lot of people have: that Wuk Lamat dominates everything. So you can save your ad hominem attack against me.

Also, all that graph really says is that Wuk Lamat was in a lot of scenes across the entire expansion, and had some dedicated spotlight speeches, which we already know; it's not actually surprising, revealing or damning that she had the most lines in the expansion. What I'd actually like to see is graphs for specific stretches of the MSQ; say, across Yak T'el or Heritage Found, where there's other consistent main characters to compare against, like Sphene or Bakool Ja Ja. Sphene is REALLY high up there for only being in one and a half zones compared to Wuk Lamat's six-plus-the-cities; I think that shines light on the fact that there's some other factors that you're not discussing, and that maybe if we adjust for relative screentime, we'll find far chattier people than Wuk Lamat.

Do you truly think that a character with significantly less dialogue (spoken or otherwise) would have an opportunity to actually have relevance? Much less their story going into Dawntrail adequately explored? Like I said: Erenville got half a zone and a handful of quests at the end to resolve his plot with his mother. Krile’s storyline was drip-fed along the expansion, culminating to a grand total of two quests in the final zone to wrap up. I truly do not know how you can say that Wuk Lamat doesn’t dominate every other character, and I again ask: which version of Dawntrail did you play and where can I find it.

[Rannie]

Krile’s storyline was drip-fed along the expansion, culminating to a grand total of two quests in the final zone to wrap up. I truly do not know how you can say that Wuk Lamat doesn’t dominate every other character, and I again ask: which version of Dawntrail did you play and where can I find it.

I wouldn't even call that being dripped fed because damn near every time she tried to bring up her grandfather she was always rebuffed with "We can't talk about it." it was more like trying to turn on the faucet and nothing is coming out.

[Cleretic]

Do you truly think that a character with significantly less dialogue (spoken or otherwise) would have an opportunity to actually have relevance? Much less their story going into Dawntrail adequately explored? Like I said: Erenville got half a zone and a handful of quests at the end to resolve his plot with his mother. Krile’s storyline was drip-fed along the expansion, culminating to a grand total of two quests in the final zone to wrap up. I truly do not know how you can say that Wuk Lamat doesn’t dominate every other character, and I again ask: which version of Dawntrail did you play and where can I find it.

Erenville's a laconic character that deliberately de-emphasises himself even in conversations about himself, and Krile largely takes part in discussions about her story rather than talking about it at length, with the one in-story instance of her actually giving a speech instead given to us in the form of an Echo flashback. (A flashback that incidentally we can't even hack into these figures because for whatever reason this graph doesn't have Galuf in it; why is that?) It is entirely reasonable that their numbers are that low despite being such presences. Meanwhile Wuk Lamat has multiple straight-up speeches, and like we've said, is the protagonist of the story who has a pronounced presence in every single zone. It is also entirely reasonable that her numbers are that high.

This graph is a cherry-picked statistic that I can poke even more holes into than just that (consider how low Zoraal Ja is despite him being unarguably an outsized figure in the expansion, and anyone who played the expansion would know why that is), and is utterly meaningless outside of pure trivia. You're trying to claim it as damning evidence so that your opinion might possibly be considered as more than it is: your feelings.

Your feelings are valid. But 'valid' doesn't mean 'fact'.