Feedback: Dawntrail MSQ thoughts

[Vallavia]

But did it have to be the ENTIRE Expansion? Her Arc was pretty much done after she was crowned (or arguably after ZoraalJas Bossfight).
What exactly is her role after that in the story?

The entire conflict about Sphene and Alexandria was about how the few Endless are draining so much either, that they basically have o drain all the shards, destroying all life on them.
This is a problem in the league of what the Worrior of Light and Scions are usually dealing with.
Why is WukLamats so important here? Why was it not Erenville and Krile who supported us against Sphene? They had to delete their parents, they have more emotional "stakes" in this than WukLamat.

Please elaborate why she absolutley HAD to be front and center until the very end, I honestly don't understand.

Principally, it's because Sphene's philosophy as a ruler directly mirrors Lamat's, and the natural conclusion of her arc is to confront the failings of the logical extremes of that philosophy to better serve her people. Also, I think it would be far more strange if she was directly involved in the plot for 99% of the story and then just evaporates for the final confrontation.

[honest_psycho]

Principally, it's because Sphene's philosophy as a ruler directly mirrors Lamat's, and the natural conclusion of her arc is to confront the failings of the logical extremes of that philosophy to better serve her people. Also, I think it would be far more strange if she was directly involved in the plot for 99% of the story and then just evaporates for the final confrontation.

How does WL philosophy "mirror" that of Sphenes?
Sphene fights for the survival of her people and is willing to kill other worlds for it.
Wuk Lamat fights Spehne for the survivel of HER people and deletes/kills all the Endless.

Or is the "killing of the other" the moral failing you speak of?
Cause imho thats simply a battle for survival, one there is no good or bad side (even WL didnt put blame on Sphene for it).

Or is the "moral failing" that Sphene didn't have sympathy for the shard's which she planned to destroy for survival?
Is WL the "mirror" because she tried to "know" the people she HAS to genocide? Does that make her a "better ruler"?

WL doesnt really have any choice in that regard, the same as Sphene. Both have to do what they must to protect their own people, at the cost of the other side.

Again, if she was a side character, dealing with the "being a ruler part" and with US dealing with the existencial threat, then that would be fine.
But even in the final trial, she HAD to take the spotlight.
Why are WE, the Warrior of Light, even present, when WL does all the important stuff?

[Cleretic]

But did it have to be the ENTIRE Expansion? Her Arc was pretty much done after she was crowned (or arguably after ZoraalJas Bossfight).
What exactly is her role after that in the story?

Yes, it did, because her arc wasn't done after she was crowned.

Putting it simply, up until the point where she was crowned, the story was about Wuk Lamat learning what type of leader she had to be, and how to be it; she wants to be a leader that promotes and celebrates peace, and she learns the nuts and bolts of being a leader across those first three zones.

The last three zones are about her leadership style and technique being put to the test. First, by being put up against raw military force: Zoraal Ja first appears to essentially be the rock to Wuk Lamat's scissors, the exact counter-force that foils her ideals: how do you champion peace if someone else won't stop waging war? If you're forced to fight, how do you?

Then, there's Sphene: like Vallavia said, her approach mirrors Wuk Lamat's instead of opposing it, but also brings it to an extreme; if you've decided you'll fight for your people's right to peace, when do you stop fighting? Where is your line? Because Sphene clearly didn't have one.

There's also a more functional element that, in the second half of the expansion, we see Wuk Lamat use the tools of peace, union and connection that she learned in the first half. Wuk Lamat isn't a ruler that stays back and sits on the throne, she's not the sort of leader that comes to a problem already having an idea of how to solve it, and she's not the sort of diplomat to just ignore the people she's surrounded by. In the last half of the expansion, we see her put into practice everything she learned in the first half, in a way that only works if she's actually there to do all of it.

In fact I've kinda had a thought about that sort of 'two-part' structure of her journey: I feel like every single claimant challenge in the first half of the story has an equivalent to something she does in the second half. I can reflexively think of a few, I'd have to go back over the whole expansion to see if I can find matches for them all.

[honest_psycho]

I agree to an extent with all the explanations so far, but...

In the last half of the expansion, we see her put into practice everything she learned in the first half, in a way that only works if she's actually there to do all of it.

Isn't that a problem? That she does ALL of it?

The main gripe is that WE, the player, and every other side-characters are reduced to specatators.
Erenville's and Krile's arcs resolution were cramped int he last moments, so WL can deal with the "important" problem.

WL philosphy or her personality isnt the problem, its her hogging up all the screentime.

[CheshCa7]

we see her put into practice everything she learned in the first half, in a way that only works if she's actually there to do all of it.

Only I never really saw the part where she truly learned something. All her ideas were validated, all her enterprises were succesfull, her entire philosophy was actually ok from the start. I keep seeing things about development and growth but never really saw said development and growth in the game.
But I see you can go to great lengths to try and justify one single character being shoved down out throats for a whole expansion.

[Cleretic]

Isn't that a problem? That she does ALL of it?

No. That is only a problem for you, and it's largely because you aren't very good at reading this story. there's a good chunk of it that's Krile Story, and an even bigger chunk of it that's Erenville Story (I would argue perhaps too much, Erenville doesn't put forward enough of his own character to feel like his corners of the MSQ get much out of him), and we'd be remiss not to point out that there's a decent amount of Koana Story, too; you know, the character whose entire presence in that second half exists because part of what Wuk Lamat learned in the claimant challenges was that she shouldn't stand alone.

Only I never really saw the part where she truly learned something. All her ideas were validated, all her enterprises were succesfull, her entire philosophy was actually ok from the start. I keep seeing things about development and growth but never really saw said development and growth in the game.
But I see you can go to great lengths to try and justify one single character being shoved down out throats for a whole expansion.

And I'd recommend that you read the story a little closer, too, because there are reasons for that; Wuk Lamat starts with none of the accolades, skills or resources as the other claimants, but every other claimant had major problems, too. Because the idea wasn't for the rite of succession to choose a successor, it was to make one, to put the claimants through challenges that would give them the skills they needed--should they realize that was how they needed to succeed.

The things Wuk Lamat didn't have, she could pick up in the challenge. What she already had was what the other claimants (almost) all lacked, and failed to gain: the ability, and respect, to actually listen to their people, learn about their lives and make allies. Zoraal Ja kept brute-forcing it, and failed when he finally hit a challenge he couldn't solo like a true Soulsborne tryhard; Bakool Ja Ja kept refusing to respect the challenge himself and cheated as much as possible; and Koana learned better by the end, but spent several early challenges deciding on his solution right from the start and refusing to learn why it might not work. In contrast, Wuk Lamat's ideas were 'always successful' because her base idea was always "I don't know jack crap about this problem; I'm gonna ask someone who does." And it turns out that openness and humility was core to succeeding; if the rite of succession's whole point was to bring together claimants with incomplete toolboxes and give them the chance to get the whole set, then the person best equipped to do it is the one whose tool is 'ask other people with tools'. Hell, it's why we're here at all; Wuk Lamat knows she can't fight as well as the others, so she got someone who can. There's a reason none of the others would have anything to do with us, and there's also a reason why all those guys lost.

If you want to know what her actual journey was, though, you're almost right, not all of those tools of leadership were necessary; it doesn't matter that Wuk Lamat learned how to barter from the pelupelu, or that she learned how to make xibraaq pibil. Her actual journey is one of gaining self-confidence, conviction, and how to use the tools she already had. At first, she asks others to help because she has a low self-image, she's comparing herself to her brothers and falling short (and of course, we'd be remiss not to mention that the other claimants don't ask for help when they fall short; there's a lesson they didn't learn there). By the end, she's asking others for help because she knows that Cahcuia has a way better grasp of Alexandria than she does, and you don't solve a problem by having the solution before you learn what it is. Some of the claimant challenges give her some specific tools with which she approaches things in the future--she reapplies the Feat of Repast with Otis and Gulool Ja, and she handles all of Alexandria like a champ primarily because she learned from the giants--but a lot of it really was just that she had to learn to do what she was already doing with the confidence and presence that a leader needs.

[honest_psycho]

No. That is only a problem for you, and it's largely because you aren't very good at reading this story.

Ah, so because I think Wuk Lamat got too much screentime, I'm an illiterate buffoon who is to dumb to understand all the nuances and YOU are the enlightened Poet who takes pity on us mere mortals?

Again, you and the other guy just write paragraphs, trying to "educate us un-washed masses", about what everything means, whole comepletely disregarding our main complaint: WUK LAMAT TAKES TOO MUCH SCREEN TIME.

For someone who worshippes the ground, that Wuk Lamats walks on, you do very little do actually understand US.
You know, what Wuk Lamat's character-arc was supposedly all about?

Oh, and please only write one paragraph. I clearly dont have the mental capacity to read and understand more.

[Cleretic]

Ah, so because I think Wuk Lamat got too much screentime, I'm an illiterate buffoon who is to dumb to understand all the nuances and YOU are the enlightened Poet who takes pity on us mere mortals?

Again, you and the other guy just write paragraphs, trying to "educate us un-washed masses", about what everything means, whole comepletely disregarding our main complaint: WUK LAMAT TAKES TOO MUCH SCREEN TIME.

For someone who worshippes the ground, that Wuk Lamats walks on, you do very little do actually understand US.
You know, what Wuk Lamat's character-arc was supposedly all about?

Oh, and please only write one paragraph. I clearly dont have the mental capacity to read and understand more.

I don't have anything else to respond to here, why would I write any more than one line? You didn't like the story, that I don't think you understood very well: congratulations. Want a medal?

[HyoMinPark]

No. That is only a problem for you, and it's largely because you aren't very good at reading this story. there's a good chunk of it that's Krile Story, and an even bigger chunk of it that's Erenville Story (I would argue perhaps too much, Erenville doesn't put forward enough of his own character to feel like his corners of the MSQ get much out of him), and we'd be remiss not to point out that there's a decent amount of Koana Story, too

How can you say this when the just the spoken line distribution looks like this:



Even if you want to argue that this is just spoken dialogue, do you seriously think that Erenville and Krile have enough unspoken lines to even compete with Wuk Lamat? Keep in mind she will also have more unspoken lines to add to this tally.

What version of Dawntrail did you play, and where can I find it? Because all I got was the one where Wuk acted like a black hole for any and all characters around her. Even up to the final trial where she shoved herself into that, too. Deus ex machina style.

There was only one character and one story that mattered in this expansion, and it wasn’t Erenville’s or Krile’s. Their stories were ultimately condensed into the last couple of level 100 quests. Erenville had a little bit of the 4th zone, too—but not for long before Wuk Lamat had to be shoehorned into there, too!

I genuinely do not understand how you can say with a straight face that any other character had significant relevance in this story.

[GrizzlyTank]

What version of Dawntrail did you play, and where can I find it? Because all I got was the one where Wuk acted like a black hole for any and all characters around her. Even up to the final trial where she shoved herself into that, too. Deus ex machina style.

It's funny isn't. Both the prominent queens in this story acted like black holes. One for narrative and one as a potential calamity.
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Also question regarding Cachiua.

Was she crippled or something before the dome appeared, some time before Erenville went and explore the world? Seeing how she had such massive desire to explore the world, but couldn't.