The Negative Impact of Poor Character Writing on the Quality of Dawntrail's MSQ

[Bunyon]

That gondola ride was the first time I felt like we were about to start exploring some interesting concepts of what exactly is life for the Endless, whether they are alive and if they should continue to live, and address the weight of shutting them down. But I feel like we just hand waved all of that away with a "Well, we're on a time limit and also nobody really seems bothered to be erased?"

The only thing that made me feel actually bad was how Erenville was treated. He saw his whole past life get obliterated in seconds without knowing exactly what happened, and then was fooled into thinking his mom was okay, only to then being told she only exists in this weird memory state and he gets dragged around the last zone knowing they have to pull the plug, and it's just... handled so weird and rushed.

[duckorz]

Thanks for posting this. I saw this thread on the /r/ffxivdiscussion subreddit and considered linking this post here as well. It's a good read.

Also welcome to the official forums!

Thanks! I have a ton to say about this expansion (unfortunately, I have as much bad to say about it as I had good to say about ShB and EW :P), so I may post a few follow-ups in this thread if people are interested. I haven't even gotten into how this character writing problem affects the plot and suspension of disbelief, and I took notes that ended up with... uh... over 100 serious questions that I have for the narrative at this point that drove me totally crazy while playing the MSQ, lmao.

That gondola ride was the first time I felt like we were about to start exploring some interesting concepts of what exactly is life for the Endless, whether they are alive and if they should continue to live, and address the weight of shutting them down. But I feel like we just hand waved all of that away with a "Well, we're on a time limit and also nobody really seems bothered to be erased?"

The only thing that made me feel actually bad was how Erenville was treated. He saw his whole past life get obliterated in seconds without knowing exactly what happened, and then was fooled into thinking his mom was okay, only to then being told she only exists in this weird memory state and he gets dragged around the last zone knowing they have to pull the plug, and it's just... handled so weird and rushed.

It is super strange, right? It's as if a switch is flipped on that scene that is flipped back off as soon as its over. The G'raha I once knew is back, and then he's gone again as soon as its over. And I know I'm not alone in noticing this, because I've seen tons of people point out this scene in particular as a stand-out. I think people are better at noticing empathetic, realistically-human writing than they think they are!

This is all what makes DT a very problematic expansion to discuss and to make a holistic, convincing case against. Because Dawntrail is, as outlined (maybe even by Ishikawa herself as senior narrative designer - a lot of the themes seem to be stuff she's been interested in exploring, and I can easily imagine a Living Memory that is far, far, far more compelling, ethically ambiguous, and emotionally gutting if she were to have written it) a pretty interesting narrative! I love succession plots, I love new cultures, and I love coming to learn them, know them, and understand them. I even love the fundamental premise of characters like Wuk Lamat (I love Genki Shounen Protags with hearts of gold and commitment to ideals), the themes of consumption and conflict, and the premise of Living Memory and Solution 9 as places of idyllic, nostalgia-driven, conservative indulgence that seeks to preserve a harmful status quo of infinite consumption at the cost of the well-being of other cultures and societies (very relevant to the world we live in, if it were written better!)

Because of this, DT is very vulnerable to something called "Thermian Arguments," which are, essentially, making the argument that anyone who criticizes a narrative or its contents was simply not paying attention when the narrative expects us to take its premises for granted. A great example of a Thermian Argument with Dawntrail is with Living Memory and the Endless; we may ask as an audience "why do we not see the Endless as people, despite them possessing a memory that reacts and responds to new information, has desires and apparent feelings, and exists in a way that is more or less identical to a living person?" or, "why do we think its okay to write off their existence as people and think that shutting them down is the only solution, and is a solution that is totally morally and ethically uncomplicated and that we shouldn't even feel bad about?" the answers to this question for someone using a Thermian argument are, "Cachuia tells you that they arent people, and tells you that theres no other way to solve the problem and defeat Sphene other than shutting them down." The problem is that narratives are not real - they're entirely invented by the choices made by the writers. Moreover, I need to ask this question seriously, because it really makes no sense, and its absolutely critical for the last area:

Why does the narrative outright say we shouldn't care at all about the fate of the Endless, since they're not people, and then expect us to be emotionally invested in Sphene as a real person in the final trial?

(This is actually even worse than it seems, because Sphene isn't just an Endless - she's an AI programmed by Preservation to perform a certain task: she's even less human than the Endless like Cachuia and Kriles parents are!)

This is why "Show dont Tell" is such critical advice: it's not enough for Wuk Lamat to tell me that she apparently "doesn't fully trust Sphene" when her *behavior* indicates that she does. It's not an acceptable argument against the critique that she's still naive and too trusting to say that "the narrative says that Wuk Lamat doesn't trust her, weren't you paying attention?" when we, as human beings, are reading words and observing behavior that says that she does. To say that people who experienced this were just cutscene skipping and missed the point is borderline gaslighting.

Like, in what world does this ever make sense to say not just as Wuk Lamat, with all of her flaws that she's supposedly totally growing past, but as a human being?



I'm not asking for characters to act rationally all the time. But the reasoning behind this line is absurd and even the dumbest most irrational person in the world would never say this. Even if they did, the people around them (including Scions that SHOULD KNOW BETTER AND HAVE BEEN IN THIS SITUATION NUMEROUS TIMES) would caution them against it. Most of all, someone who said this would probably get routinely taken advantage of so often that they would eventually be forced to learn their lesson. And yet, when Sphene betrays her not even two levels later, she's somehow surprised by it? WE'RE somehow surprised by it? It's completely insane and totally shatters my immersion in the narrative (although that had been broken like, three levels ago at this point and never recovered). This is the person that we supported to become the god-empress of the entire Turali continent. When I see her talking like this and behaving this way I feel like we made a horrible mistake.

[SushiOishiiii]

It definately takes you out of the immersion when characters say one thing and do another. Also, I do agree with no subtext making the story bland as well as it's trying to almost educate me rather than entertain me.

[Dariy]

I loved Endwalker and Shadowbriners story, but this... this is just depressing. Haven't finished story yet, but my main gripe is that story treats players like 6 year olds. Every single thing is explained to you in great detail. Like at one moment before first trial Alisaie was saying "Even people with wildly different ideals can find understanding through earnest discussion. I believe that wholeheartedly". This sounds like a corporate statement. No Sass, no character, nothing. Listening to this feels like munching dry and moldy bread. And all MSQ is like that. Characters are one (or even zero) dimensional. New races are bland and uninspired and basically have one defining trait and that's all. World building is lazy.

Yes, dungeons and trials are good. Yes graphics update is excellent. Yes, locations look pretty. Yes, new job gear is awesome, but what's the point if you want to unlearn how to read and perform self-assisted lobotomy just to not experience the story.

[Solac]

I still think we're all being fooled. At the end of the add-on it turns out that Wuk is actually the bad guy and the final trail will be to chase that stupid Mary Sue where she belongs.

Funnily enough, I think the mere announcement of being able to finaly beat her would immediately restore the number of players.


I mean... if you were to encounter a character like that in a game where you really had the choice of whether you wanted to take the character with you or not, Wuk would be the character that only hardcore fans would take into group to unlock the last achievement...

[Mnemy]

That gondola ride was the first time I felt like we were about to start exploring some interesting concepts of what exactly is life for the Endless, whether they are alive and if they should continue to live, and address the weight of shutting them down. But I feel like we just hand waved all of that away with a "Well, we're on a time limit and also nobody really seems bothered to be erased?"

The only thing that made me feel actually bad was how Erenville was treated. He saw his whole past life get obliterated in seconds without knowing exactly what happened, and then was fooled into thinking his mom was okay, only to then being told she only exists in this weird memory state and he gets dragged around the last zone knowing they have to pull the plug, and it's just... handled so weird and rushed.

Gods, This is my problem too. Erenville was done so dirty in this expac. Look I know the way they wrote the guy in this expac is that he is grumpy and standoffish but, with the way he talks about his mom whenever shes brought up, it might be reserved but there fondness respect and unending love there. It's obvious he has gripes with her style of parenting ofcourse but there is love there.

When we were going through his part in the story and he was going through his grief of letting his mom go, I was expecting a Magnus from ShB levels of nuanced take on grief for him but we didnt get that here. Yes he was sad but it doesn't fit with how a grief this large and all encompassing should be handled. Imagine one moment your mom is fine, you can finally see her after years of being gone. You know she's hale and whole and then the next you are told she only has 3 hours left to live. That kind of grief is like a sucker punch to the gut, It's ugly, it consumes you, it can put a man on their knees, it can cause friction or a dilemma with your companions because you are GRIEVING and in DENIAL. We didnt get that here. We didnt get friction, we didnt get ANYTHING substantial.

I feel like they stole something from Erenville in this expansion bros...

[Bunyon]

I feel like they stole something from Erenville in this expansion bros...

Honestly, I feel like they kinda stole it from Krile too. She learns she's from another shard halfway through the expansion (and she's excited about it) and absolutely nothing significant involving her happens until the very end, where we meet and resolve her parents in MAYBE one hour. They really should have introduced them earlier in some regard, or at least some information on them or anything, like when they analyze the earring. It just didn't work for me at all.

I understand that the first half of the expansion was world building but they wasted way too much time that would have been better served in character development in the second half.

[aTanpopo]

Gods, This is my problem too. Erenville was done so dirty in this expac. Look I know the way they wrote the guy in this expac is that he is grumpy and standoffish but, with the way he talks about his mom whenever shes brought up, it might be reserved but there fondness respect and unending love there. It's obvious he has gripes with her style of parenting ofcourse but there is love there.

This is something that keeps coming back and bothering me- its like the plot points are right there but they just refused to expand on them and im so disappointed. Sure I guess they could touch on them post-msq, but it won't have the same impact than if it was all in the leadup to eventually having to erase Cahcuia. Any time the two are together, we aren't allowed to see them interact because either we are dealing with Wuk Lamat or Sphene. Cahcuia even asks Erenville to tell her about us and what we've been up to together and then they just have him walk off and we never talk about it again. All these leads into development for multiple characters and its just wasted. The interactions are always just implied to maybe have happened off screen I guess??

Also, we are invited to help Wuk Lamat with the rite of succession but then she just goes and asks around the communities she visits for help anyway. Not that i'm against her trying to learn the cultures, I think its a nice theme overall, but I dont see why people in the group couldn't have also contributed to it more (and help them get more screentime in the process). Like, the first (or second depending on quest order I guess) rite, where she has to capture an alpaca: we go around bartering with the Pelupelu and getting this saddle. Why was no one's first though to ask the gleaner, who's literal speciality is capturing live animals, how to capture an alpaca? I guess Erenville's knowledge about nature and the environment, that Wuk Lamat insisted he came along as guide to help with, isn't actually important when it comes to the rite itself. Instead we end up making the entire process even harder by trying to barter with a guy who just doesn't want us to succeed anyway and tries to actively screw us over.

If they got any of the group more directly involved with the earlier sections of the rites, instead of making us split off and just glue us to Wuk Lamat whilst she goes around and asks random villagers for help, maybe it wouldn't make it feel like there was no reason for them to be there in the first place. It really contributes to making everyone else's personalities feel gutted out this expansion. You could probably easily make an argument for how any of the other members could help out in the other rites, I feel like Erenville and the alpaca was just the glaringly obvious one, and I just wonder what possessed the writing team to be this tunnel vision'd onto Wuk Lamat that they just forgot everyone else existed.