Do healers actually want a more complex damage rotation?

[HyoMinPark]

I also don't understand your thinking, why is the solution to do something that you have 13 other jobs to go ahead and do? Why not take the unique role of a healer and look into resolving the issue by making the actual role useful and engaging without having to make the "filler" fun?

To respond to this:

I don’t know how long you’ve been playing this game, nor do I know how long you’ve frequented discussion zones like this forum or maybe some of the FFXIV-related subreddits. So I don’t know if you might be aware of these discussions or not—but healers used to ask for this all the time. We begged and pleaded for more incoming damage to heal. For more reasons to actually BE a healer. The developers refused, and simply told us that, if we wanted to heal more, then go do Ultimate. They were not increasing the amount of incoming damage to allow healers to actually perform their role in content, and if we wanted to “be a healer”, go do Ultimate. This was early Endwalker when this was said. Healers on the forums started asking for more interesting DPS options a bit prior to that—but mostly because we had been asking for more ways to actually be a healer and were simply ignored.

[flowerkatie]

To respond to this:

I don’t know how long you’ve been playing this game, nor do I know how long you’ve frequented discussion zones like this forum or maybe some of the FFXIV-related subreddits. So I don’t know if you might be aware of these discussions or not—but healers used to ask for this all the time. We begged and pleaded for more incoming damage to heal. For more reasons to actually BE a healer. The developers refused, and simply told us that, if we wanted to heal more, then go do Ultimate. They were not increasing the amount of incoming damage to allow healers to actually perform their role in content, and if we wanted to “be a healer”, go do Ultimate. This was early Endwalker when this was said. Healers on the forums started asking for more interesting DPS options a bit prior to that—but mostly because we had been asking for more ways to actually be a healer and were simply ignored.

What you're essentially saying is "We agree with you but developers said impossible so we want this band-aid fix instead", which is an argument that has been made twice already so I'm already fully aware of it. If the nonsensical argument of "play this specific content" is enough for you to concede and begin advocating for a non-ideal fix to the issue then your entire point is moot. Because, they're obviously not going to make DPS more complex and give another silly argument all the same to our suggestions of doing DPS.

So if both suggestions are going to be ignored then you rather stop discussion on it completely or advocate for the fix you want, which is what I'm doing. Verses advocating for a arguably worse solution that is also never going to happen. Cause, by the look of it - you're still being ignored.

[HyoMinPark]

What you're essentially saying is "We agree with you but developers said impossible so we want this band-aid fix instead", which is an argument that has been made twice already so I'm already fully aware of it. If the nonsensical argument of "play this specific content" is enough for you to concede and begin advocating for a non-ideal fix to the issue then your entire point is moot. Because, they're obviously not going to make DPS more complex and give another silly argument all the same to our suggestions of doing DPS.

So if both suggestions are going to be ignored then you rather stop discussion on it completely or advocate for the fix you want, which is what I'm doing. Verses advocating for a arguably worse solution that is also never going to happen. Cause, by the look of it - you're still being ignored.

I don’t think you quite understand just how long healers asked to be given more reasons to actually heal versus dealing damage for 80% or more of the time they’re in a given piece of content. Healers have been advocating for this for 6+ years at this point. And instead of getting any decent response, we’ve been told to “to go Ultimate” (which still doesn’t require all that much more healing uptime, as someone who has cleared an Ultimate on a healer) or are just ignored completely. Our kits continue to be pruned of any interesting damage capability, and overly bloated by MORE healing tools we don’t need because content hits like a wet noodle more often than not.

I don’t agree with any “go play a damage dealer instead” argument. I’ve tried playing other DPS jobs. The one I loved the most was lobotomized going into Shadowbringers, all nuance and flavor removed from it so that the new job in its role could shine instead. I’m not INTERESTED in playing any other jobs—I want to play the jobs I enjoy the most, which just happen to be healers. I simply don’t want to be bored while doing it. The only time I’m not bored as a healer is if I get a 24-man where people are playing as if it’s Day 1, Zero hour and dying to literally everything and I have to go into emergency triage mode. But why does a single role’s enjoyment have to hinge upon “is my party competent or a bunch of clowns”?

And we aren’t asking for complex rotations like DPS jobs have. Healers have literally asked for something akin to the kits they had in Stormblood, which consisted, for the most part, of an extra DoT or two that they could refresh and manage; and that helped break up the Glare/Broil/Malefic spam. No idea if you were playing back then, but that was probably the happiest the healers were despite issues with WHM’s Lily system and arguments about AST’s card system when it came to Balance fishing.

My ideal change would be increased damage coming in from bosses. But since the developers have made it extremely clear that they refuse to do that (everything has to be catered to the lowest common denominator—which are the healers who simply cannot heal their way out of a paper bag and do not attempt to get any better at their role), then I would like to advocate for more abilities to break up my Glare spam monotony. And I have long since said I’d be happy if they brought Aero III back and gave me a second DoT to manage. It’s not like I’m asking for a rotation like the tanks or DPS. I’m not even asking for them to return old Cleric Stance even though I LOVED Cleric Stance dancing. 1 more DoT on a different timer. At least now I have another button to press and another item to manage in between using just oGCDs to keep people alive…

[Shurrikhan]

What you're essentially saying is "We agree with you but developers said impossible so we want this band-aid fix instead", which is an argument that has been made twice already so I'm already fully aware of it. If the nonsensical argument of "play this specific content" is enough for you to concede and begin advocating for a non-ideal fix to the issue then your entire point is moot. Because, they're obviously not going to make DPS more complex and give another silly argument all the same to our suggestions of doing DPS.

So if both suggestions are going to be ignored then you rather stop discussion on it completely or advocate for the fix you want, which is what I'm doing. Verses advocating for a arguably worse solution that is also never going to happen. Cause, by the look of it - you're still being ignored.

Read: "If Optimal Choice X is literally impossible, then falling back on the nearest actual possibility means your need is without weight."

There is... so much wrong with this.

First, the argument to "play this specific content" (that being Ultimate) comes from Yoshida, not players, let alone those from these forums. Those here would rather be as engaged in all content on healers as they are on DPS or at least tanks.

Second, "play[ing] this specific content" doesn't even solve the issue, as even healing Ultimates... is quickly rendered boring from an actual healing perspective. Even there, a good healer will spend more than 80% of their time just dealing damage, possibly even spending nigh 80% of casts of the same damn button (e.g., Broil).

Verses advocating for a arguably worse solution that is also never going to happen.

Adding a bit of engagement to "downtime" (i.e., when no healing is required) is still far superior to leaving things as dull as they are now, since the vast, vast majority of our time... is "downtime" even in the hardest content in the game.

You're making it sound like any suggestion more flexible than "Make all content demand more, and more skillful, healing than even Ultimate" is somehow hypocritical. This is the "You're not a real healer" (if you're just a career healer bored out of your minds and willing to even take scraps at this point) argument taken to 11, and it was already ridiculous from the start.

[flowerkatie]

This is the "You're not a real healer" (if you're just a career healer bored out of your minds and willing to even take scraps at this point) argument taken to 11, and it was already ridiculous from the start.

Fabricating an argument that I did not make and then calling it ridiculous is ... something.

That isn't my argument, if you read the thread and responses you'll see multiple times I completely understand why people want more engaging damage rotations and that I myself simply want healers to be more engaging. I've even said previously "So I agree with you, I hope something will change and in the end - even if it isn't exactly what I want, if its an improvement I'll be happy. ".

Stop feeling so called out, I simply want a better fix than "more damage options" for healer classes and don't agree with doubling down on leaving healing in a bad state and focusing on the "filler" instead, regardless of if its been ignored in the past.