Do healers actually want a more complex damage rotation?

[flowerkatie]

Did you actually respond to valid criticism of a role with "There are other jobs to choose from"? Healers aren't asking for their focus to be dealing damage, they are asking that if SE is going to give them no reason to heal, then the fallback damage they are inevitably spending 70% of their time doing should be as engaging as other roles.

Of course I did, my criticism is that the argument you're making is that we're being given no reason to heal so we should have engaging damage rotations instead. There are literally 13 jobs built around engaging damaging rotations so if thats what you want, go play them.

If we want to fix healers then we should advocate for exactly that, fix healers. Make healing more engaging, make it more required and give us more difficult encounters to justify it.

[Lambdafish]

Of course I did, my criticism is that the argument you're making is that we're being given no reason to heal so we should have engaging damage rotations instead. There are literally 13 jobs built around engaging damaging rotations so if thats what you want, go play them.

If we want to fix healers then we should advocate for exactly that, fix healers. Make healing more engaging, make it more required and give us more difficult encounters to justify it.

I think you missed the point entirely. I'm advocating for healers to have more engaging anything, focusing on paths to power, and resource management, and only mentioning DPS because it is easier to give healers more engaging DPS to make moment-to-moment gameplay more fun than it is to fundamentally change the entire battle system including the design of tanks and DPS on top of healers, as well as encounter design, in order to make healing engaging enough to make up for the inevitable downtime that healers will still have.

I've said this before, but one big complaint about healers is that they are unnecessary in dungeons. This isn't actually a healer issue, it's a dungeon issue, since dungeons are the only content in the game held up by one healer, with no way for other roles to raise the healer outside of the chance of RDM or SMN. Dungeons have to be braindead for a healer to heal, otherwise one healer struggling to pass a mechanic means that the entire party is roadblocked, and that's not the sort of whiplash we need from casual content. For healers to ever become engaging on their healing kit alone, the concept of dungeons needs to fundamentally change.

[KisaiTenshi]

Of course I did, my criticism is that the argument you're making is that we're being given no reason to heal so we should have engaging damage rotations instead. There are literally 13 jobs built around engaging damaging rotations so if thats what you want, go play them.

If we want to fix healers then we should advocate for exactly that, fix healers. Make healing more engaging, make it more required and give us more difficult encounters to justify it.

The focus MUST be on healing. Not damage rotations. The minute you have a "damage rotation" it's no longer a healer, and someone tasked with healing will neglect the healing job because "but muh DPS!"

Like I would be completely happy with the entire GCD DPS kit disappearing under party play. But I don't want to be stuck with nothing to do. Spamming healing uselessly just leads to the problem we already have where the developers think we're pressing medica/M2/M3 every 2 seconds to keep the party alive, when by the time the gear creep catches up, the party doesn't take enough damage to justify that. There is quite literately "too much healing kit, not enough reason to use it."

Two things remain true in DT, that have been true ever since the introduction of the NPC squad.
- You as the healer can tell the NPC's to run into battle, and then you can sit back and drink your tea while they don't need you at all.
- The NPC's combat scripts are "too perfect", so when you get to a boss fight all you have to do is follow one of the DPS. Forget doing anything at all. The only way you can KO Y'shtola or Alisae in a boss fight is by intentionally running a "meteor" marker on top of them instead of spreading out. Something I will add, Krile keeps doing.

Now, not EVERY fight you can get away with it, but you can pretty much pick any NPC trust enabled fight and just use the DPS kit and likely the tank will survive anyway. That's genuinely concerning because it means the developers made the SAME assumption that everyone is just using the healer role as a green DPS.

[Tunda]

The focus MUST be on healing. Not damage rotations. The minute you have a "damage rotation" it's no longer a healer, and someone tasked with healing will neglect the healing job because "but muh DPS!"

Like I would be completely happy with the entire GCD DPS kit disappearing under party play. But I don't want to be stuck with nothing to do. Spamming healing uselessly just leads to the problem we already have where the developers think we're pressing medica/M2/M3 every 2 seconds to keep the party alive, when by the time the gear creep catches up, the party doesn't take enough damage to justify that. There is quite literately "too much healing kit, not enough reason to use it."

Two things remain true in DT, that have been true ever since the introduction of the NPC squad.
- You as the healer can tell the NPC's to run into battle, and then you can sit back and drink your tea while they don't need you at all.
- The NPC's combat scripts are "too perfect", so when you get to a boss fight all you have to do is follow one of the DPS. Forget doing anything at all. The only way you can KO Y'shtola or Alisae in a boss fight is by intentionally running a "meteor" marker on top of them instead of spreading out. Something I will add, Krile keeps doing.

Now, not EVERY fight you can get away with it, but you can pretty much pick any NPC trust enabled fight and just use the DPS kit and likely the tank will survive anyway. That's genuinely concerning because it means the developers made the SAME assumption that everyone is just using the healer role as a green DPS.

Why not both? Look at Sage the most successful healer at the moment..
It has damage and heal I do not say all healers should be like this but should have different kit that sage

[GrimGale]

The focus MUST be on healing. Not damage rotations. The minute you have a "damage rotation" it's no longer a healer, and someone tasked with healing will neglect the healing job because "but muh DPS!"

That already happens with what we have already. Again, healers not healing isn't a class design problem its a player problem. In the same way you can't force DPS players to not be Ice mages, you can't force healers to "heal" if they just won't press the appropriate buttons, no matter how abundant they are.

[flowerkatie]

That already happens with what we have already. Again, healers not healing isn't a class design problem its a player problem. In the same way you can't force DPS players to not be Ice mages, you can't force healers to "heal" if they just won't press the appropriate buttons, no matter how abundant they are.

I mean this response to KisaiTenshi just seems like nonesense, you can't force a DPS to do damage but they still do it because its literally required and they're going to be kicked from content if they afk. Healers don't heal because healing isn't required half the time, that isn't a player issue.

Make content harder and have people dying without heals and you are damn right people will press heal buttons, because its actually required and needed. Unless you have the ridiculous opinion that people playing healers are going to refuse to heal.

[GrimGale]

Unless you have the ridiculous opinion that people playing healers are going to refuse to heal.

This is literally the argument against giving healers more dps tools by the way.

[flowerkatie]

But DPS have mitigation abilities, same as tanks. They may not be as strong but they do have them.

They have a single button or two, akin to what healers have. We're talking about giving more.

you haven't still not explained why should any other class have tools that pertain to other roles.

DPS mitigation and sustain is incredibly basic and in most cases a single button or two, this is exactly akin to how basic healer damage is. So I'm not exactly sure what you want me to explain, I'm not arguing to remove the very basic damage options, as I'm not arguing we should remove the very basic mitigation options.

After all by the same logic that healers should heal, tanks should tank, so they do not need complex damage rotations that distract them from "tanking".

I already answered this in my previous response, saying "X should do this because Y does this" is an argument you can make but it is an argument I disagree with, nothing says these two have to work the same way. Again, they are different roles and I'm not making any arguments of what tanks should or shouldn't have.

Why should DPS classes have "support" abilities that distract them from dpsing?

I never said they should or shouldn't, so I'm not sure why you're asking me. If you're asking because of my opinion on healers then you're just pulling at straws for the sake of it at this point. Healers should have basic DPS abilities, as they currently do. But healing needs fixing and the fix to that isn't focusing on the DPS. You're missing all my points entirely.

This is literally the argument against giving healers more dps tools by the way.

Perhaps for people who seriously think that choosing when to heal and when to damage is difficult, but its not my argument. Read most of my points and you'll see my arguments.

[GrimGale]

I already answered this in my previous response, saying "X should do this because Y does this" is an argument you can make but it is an argument I disagree with, nothing says these two have to work the same way. Again, they are different roles and I'm not making any arguments of what tanks should or shouldn't have.

But we're talking about the principle right? We're trying to understand why the double standard regarding the fact that Tanks are allowed to have a damage dealing rotation and healers are not. If classes should have kits exclusively designed around their roles, i.e. pure tanking, pure healing, pure dps, then why do tanks deserve to have DPS rotation while Healers are not allowed that?

In any case, it ultimately comes down, for both of us to have a less repetitive filler time in healer gameplay. You'd rather fill it up with more healing, which I believe is fine though it comes with its own drove of complications and is probably the hardest solution to implement (though I am not opposed to it personally.)
Where as I accept that filler DPS is there to stay, I just wish for a bit more complexity in it. I do want to heal. I enjoy the balancing act of using healing abilities and "other" abilities to complement the party, that being damage, buffs or debuffs.

In the end we both agree that the current gameplay is not acceptable, we just disagree in the direction it should move towards.

[Zaytex]

The focus MUST be on healing. Not damage rotations. The minute you have a "damage rotation" it's no longer a healer, and someone tasked with healing will neglect the healing job because "but muh DPS!"

Like I would be completely happy with the entire GCD DPS kit disappearing under party play. But I don't want to be stuck with nothing to do. Spamming healing uselessly just leads to the problem we already have where the developers think we're pressing medica/M2/M3 every 2 seconds to keep the party alive, when by the time the gear creep catches up, the party doesn't take enough damage to justify that. There is quite literately "too much healing kit, not enough reason to use it."

Two things remain true in DT, that have been true ever since the introduction of the NPC squad.
- You as the healer can tell the NPC's to run into battle, and then you can sit back and drink your tea while they don't need you at all.
- The NPC's combat scripts are "too perfect", so when you get to a boss fight all you have to do is follow one of the DPS. Forget doing anything at all. The only way you can KO Y'shtola or Alisae in a boss fight is by intentionally running a "meteor" marker on top of them instead of spreading out. Something I will add, Krile keeps doing.

Now, not EVERY fight you can get away with it, but you can pretty much pick any NPC trust enabled fight and just use the DPS kit and likely the tank will survive anyway. That's genuinely concerning because it means the developers made the SAME assumption that everyone is just using the healer role as a green DPS.

Why are tanks allowed a DPS rotation then?