DPS Simplification - Just do Ultimates!

[Flana]

snip

You're trying really hard to dodge the actual argument made, and its hilariously obvious. The argument about it being a business is pure nonsense, because they are already committed to adding new jobs every expansion. So I'll ask, again, why not just make new jobs to fit this so called niche of players that only want the most braindead of job design? Pictomancer could have been a 3 button snoozefest. Viper could have been a 3 button snoozefest. They did not have to lobotomize a job that already existed and utterly destroying its archetype to satisfy that niche when they are already designing new jobs.

New jobs, by the way, that still haven't filled the niche that Summoner used to fill. Want a DoT job? Get out, you're not welcome here. Want a pet job? Just wait for a limited job thats banned from doing anything relevant or evergreen. Wow what a great business decision. Truly what we should all be learning from.

[HikariKurosawa]

You're trying really hard to dodge the actual argument made, and its hilariously obvious. The argument about it being a business is pure nonsense, because they are already committed to adding new jobs every expansion. So I'll ask, again, why not just make new jobs to fit this so called niche of players that only want the most braindead of job design? Pictomancer could have been a 3 button snoozefest. Viper could have been a 3 button snoozefest. They did not have to lobotomize a job that already existed and utterly destroying its archetype to satisfy that niche when they are already designing new jobs.

New jobs, by the way, that still haven't filled the niche that Summoner used to fill. Want a DoT job? Get out, you're not welcome here. Want a pet job? Just wait for a limited job thats banned from doing anything relevant or evergreen. Wow what a great business decision. Truly what we should all be learning from.

Dots have always been the most unpopular thing in mmos and the majority dislike them. We have bard, we don't need anymore timer management based jobs. Music is all about timing anyway makes sense that bard is the one to manage timers.

There's no reason for any job to be TOO simple. There is a huge reason to make nearly every job simple enough. They are 100% aiming for a "goldilocks" level of job difficulty so that everyone is free to pick their own fantasy.

If you want hard content, PLAY HARD CONTENT. It's that simple. If you want something different, PLAY A DIFFERENT GAME. It's clear what the devs are doing and it's not going to change the way you want it to. You can "snip" my argument and ignore every point I've made as much as you want, but it's the truth and it's not even an inconvenient truth. It is good that it is the way I said it is. Just play harder content.

Also, old summoner was literally a bad job. Summons in final fantasy are not about pets and never have been. They are about a flashy short lived summon that goes away after doing its thing. Summoners are NOT about dots either. There is nothing in the job fantasy that even remotely relates to dots and it was just an evolution of the arcanist class that carries over into scholar and for some reason carried over to both jobs.

Dots are bad. The game has enough dots already. I don't mind if they make a new job that has dots, I just won't touch it and the majority of other players wont either because dots are the most unenjoyable gameplay ever. Most people like flashy nukes, they don't like dots.

[RyuuZero]

as far as I recall, Xenosys Vex once said that the current problem of FFXIV is that the Jobs play dull and that's the devs excuse to make harder ultimates.. where he proposed that Jobs need to be a bit more entertaining to play but therefor the game can be made a bit more forgiving..

Though currently as someone who doesn't engage in "difficult" content I think the biggest mistake are the addition of the pre-Shadowbringers Trust Dungeon Reworks.. because all you do now is dodging AoEs.. and some Dungeons may have better lighting but way way WAAAAY worse Gameplay! I really wonder if the people who worked on those Dungeon Reworks came to the Higher Ups, told them that "those dungeon mechanics are too hard to program Trusts for, please rework those dungeons so we can add trusts better", and they gone through with that plan.. because ARR MSQ Dungeons are now Limb Time Wasting Experiences where they were before at least selling the player the Illusion of an Adventure. Many old players do not care about the New Player Experience. New Player only hear from elder Players how long and boring ARR is, then the New Players playthrough ARR themselves and discover all the political build up that ARR did and Old Players like to forget.. but also.. how is Nabriales a 8men fight where you enter that part of the MSQ alone. But Steps of Faith is a Part where you gather various adventurers to defend the Steps of Faith is a Solo Instance... WHAT!?!?!?

ARR's Gameplay Legacy has been squandered.

[Ayalu]

as far as I recall, Xenosys Vex once said that the current problem of FFXIV is that the Jobs play dull and that's the devs excuse to make harder ultimates.. where he proposed that Jobs need to be a bit more entertaining to play but therefor the game can be made a bit more forgiving..

Though currently as someone who doesn't engage in "difficult" content I think the biggest mistake are the addition of the pre-Shadowbringers Trust Dungeon Reworks.. because all you do now is dodging AoEs.. and some Dungeons may have better lighting but way way WAAAAY worse Gameplay! I really wonder if the people who worked on those Dungeon Reworks came to the Higher Ups, told them that "those dungeon mechanics are too hard to program Trusts for, please rework those dungeons so we can add trusts better", and they gone through with that plan.. because ARR MSQ Dungeons are now Limb Time Wasting Experiences where they were before at least selling the player the Illusion of an Adventure. Many old players do not care about the New Player Experience. New Player only hear from elder Players how long and boring ARR is, then the New Players playthrough ARR themselves and discover all the political build up that ARR did and Old Players like to forget.. but also.. how is Nabriales a 8men fight where you enter that part of the MSQ alone. But Steps of Faith is a Part where you gather various adventurers to defend the Steps of Faith is a Solo Instance... WHAT!?!?!?

ARR's Gameplay Legacy has been squandered.

Yeah i fear thats a reason why everything basicly is designed like that so the dungeon helper works as intendet.
While i cant proof it i am also sure thats the reason we our Trust Members got a huge Plotarmor shield as if one of them would die it would not only narrative consequences but also mechanicaly with the character not usuable in the Trust System.

[Ramiee]

Dots have always been the most unpopular thing in mmos and the majority dislike them. We have bard, we don't need anymore timer management based jobs. Music is all about timing anyway makes sense that bard is the one to manage timers.

Dots are bad. The game has enough dots already. I don't mind if they make a new job that has dots, I just won't touch it and the majority of other players wont either because dots are the most unenjoyable gameplay ever. Most people like flashy nukes, they don't like dots.

Tell me you don't play MMOs without telling me you don't play MMOs. You are trolling at this point lmao. Affliction warlock is like everyones favourite pvp spec for warlock in wow and GW2 every single class has a million dots, the most popular iconic class in all of MMOs, WOWs Warrior has a million dots.
Bait used to be believable smh.

[Galvuu]

Tell me you don't play MMOs without telling me you don't play MMOs. You are trolling at this point lmao. Affliction warlock is like everyones favourite pvp spec for warlock in wow and GW2 every single class has a million dots, the most popular iconic class in all of MMOs, WOWs Warrior has a million dots.
Bait used to be believable smh.

Even in XIV, historically, people have been unhappy with the removal of dots. More recently, the SMN rework was very divisive (and alienated a portion of its original playerbase) and the BLM Thunder change is very unpopular, but I still remember MNKs being mad about removing ToD and WARs losing Fracture. I'm not even going to bother with the healers losing their dots- it's one of the most frequent requests in the 500 page healer strike thread. There isn't a single SCH in the world that doesn't want Miasma II back, or a WHM that doesn't miss Aero III. Dots are, in fact, one of the easiest and safest ways to increase the skill ceiling and engagement of a job.
(I'm biased, ofc, because I do enjoy dot management a lot. HW SCH/EW SMN, my beloveds...)

[HikariKurosawa]

Even in XIV, historically, people have been unhappy with the removal of dots. More recently, the SMN rework was very divisive (and alienated a portion of its original playerbase) and the BLM Thunder change is very unpopular, but I still remember MNKs being mad about removing ToD and WARs losing Fracture. I'm not even going to bother with the healers losing their dots- it's one of the most frequent requests in the 500 page healer strike thread. There isn't a single SCH in the world that doesn't want Miasma II back, or a WHM that doesn't miss Aero III. Dots are, in fact, one of the easiest and safest ways to increase the skill ceiling and engagement of a job.
(I'm biased, ofc, because I do enjoy dot management a lot. HW SCH/EW SMN, my beloveds...)

Did I ever say that EVERYONE hates dots? I said the vast majority doesn't enjoy dots, which is true. You act like everyone loves dots just because a few people complained about their removal. Most people do not enjoy dots. Affliction warlock in WoW pvp is popular because dots are all instant cast and prevent stealth from going off, forcing rogue cooldowns or mage cooldowns and they get around line of sight. It's not because people like dots, it's because dots are really strong in a pvp environment.

The BLM thunder change is unpopular with a few people, but really popular with another demographic that likely dwarfs those who complain.

I understand your perspective but you have to realize that life is not all or nothing. You have to see nuance.

Also, I play sch and whm. I would never want an AoE dot back. It is less impact and more thought toward damage on a healer role. If I am doing AoE damage, I want to be spamming a mindless button so I can only think about healing. I get your perspective, but just play dps if you want to focus on dps. Healers should think of healing primarily.

[Ramiee]

Did I ever say that EVERYONE hates dots? I said the vast majority doesn't enjoy dots, which is true. You act like everyone loves dots just because a few people complained about their removal. Most people do not enjoy dots. Affliction warlock in WoW pvp is popular because dots are all instant cast and prevent stealth from going off, forcing rogue cooldowns or mage cooldowns and they get around line of sight. It's not because people like dots, it's because dots are really strong in a pvp environment.

The BLM thunder change is unpopular with a few people, but really popular with another demographic that likely dwarfs those who complain.

I understand your perspective but you have to realize that life is not all or nothing. You have to see nuance.

"Dots have always been the most unpopular thing in mmos and the majority dislike them"
You're wrong, Pure Healers classes, Auto-attack focused classes, channel based classes are all way more unpopular to the extent they don't even exist anymore. DoT classes are just as popular as Pet classes and even long cast classes. I don't like damage healers but I would NEVER claim they aren't popular because they are, saying that we lack nuance is so funny when you speak in absolutes lmao. You either are being honest and clearly have only ever play XIV so know absoloute nothing about MMO culture or trolling.

I played WoW since it came out. I never enjoyed dots. It is a tiny number that ticks away without you doing anything.

Did I say that EVERYONE hates dots? No. Do the majority dislike them? Yes. You are the one making an absolute statement, not me. I get that there are people who like dots and timers, but just play bard? Why would summoner be the dot job ever? It's a summoner not a warlock.

Then you would know Affiliction warlock was the most popular spec for Warlock for 10 years before becoming equally as popular as destru in WoD to today. GW2 has mutiple dot classes and talent trees that turns pretty much all classes into a dot focused spec which is extremely popular for most classes. Assisination Rogue is still the most popular WoW rogue spec which is dot focused and even ARPG mmos like Lost Ark and PoE have dot focused class specs which are commonly the most played. You're just wrong lmao, I don't claim DoT classes as being the most popular MMO class archetype but is far from unpopular.
Bard isn't a dot job theres no interplay between the dots and the dps toolkit, if they added that into bard then yeah people should just play that. People want summoner as a DoT class because current summoner is the worst DPS job in the game, if it was actually a good Job people wouldn't want the old version back.

Destruction was always the most popular though so it's fine to make things up but it is what it is. People loved shadowbolt. GW2 is a meme game I'll never know anything about it or care. It is irrelevant.

Assassination rogue, you mean the one that passively applies dots aside from bleeds? It's popular because mutilate and envenom are insanely strong. Dagger rogue has nukes and feels amazing. You're the one who is wrong and I'm sorry but it is what it is. Dots will always be the low point of mmo for the majority.

Wrong destruction wasn't the most popular it was only for a short period of time during WOD, now its on the same level as Affiliction. Youll run into both as much in content. Maybe actually pay attention to the warlocks you've played with, lmao.
GW2 was more popular than XIV for years with twitch streamers reviving XIV but besides WoW is more popular than both of us combined so both games are irrelevant meme games.
Assissnation DoTs and stuns is what made it popular building up the dot into a stun combo then having the dots come together to burst your enemy, you mentioned Envenom adds DoTs lmao you just proved my point. "Dots are the low point for the majority" you are a liar and its so obvious lmao, just say you prefer burst spender classes instead of making up bull like dot classes are unpopular.
Honestly keep doing what you're doing you are a joy to laugh at.

[HikariKurosawa]

"Dots have always been the most unpopular thing in mmos and the majority dislike them"
You're wrong, Pure Healers classes, Auto-attack focused classes, channel based classes are all way more unpopular to the extent they don't even exist anymore. DoT classes are just as popular as Pet classes and even long cast classes. I don't like damage healers but I would NEVER claim they aren't popular because they are, saying that we lack nuance is so funny when you speak in absolutes lmao. You either are being honest and clearly have only ever play XIV so know absoloute nothing about MMO culture or trolling.

I played WoW since it came out. I never enjoyed dots. It is a tiny number that ticks away without you doing anything.

Did I say that EVERYONE hates dots? No. Do the majority dislike them? Yes. You are the one making an absolute statement, not me. I get that there are people who like dots and timers, but just play bard? Why would summoner be the dot job ever? It's a summoner not a warlock.

Then you would know Affiliction warlock was the most popular spec for Warlock for 10 years before becoming equally as popular as destru in WoD to today. GW2 has mutiple dot classes and talent trees that turns pretty much all classes into a dot focused spec which is extremely popular for most classes. Assisination Rogue is still the most popular WoW rogue spec which is dot focused and even ARPG mmos like Lost Ark and PoE have dot focused class specs which are commonly the most played. You're just wrong lmao, I don't claim DoT classes as being the most popular MMO class archetype but is far from unpopular.
Bard isn't a dot job theres no interplay between the dots and the dps toolkit, if they added that into bard then yeah people should just play that. People want summoner as a DoT class because current summoner is the worst DPS job in the game, if it was actually a good Job people wouldn't want the old version back.

Destruction was always the most popular though so it's fine to make things up but it is what it is. People loved shadowbolt. GW2 is a meme game I'll never know anything about it or care. It is irrelevant.

Assassination rogue, you mean the one that passively applies dots aside from bleeds? It's popular because mutilate and envenom are insanely strong. Dagger rogue has nukes and feels amazing. You're the one who is wrong and I'm sorry but it is what it is. Dots will always be the low point of mmo for the majority.