#FFXIVHEALERSTRIKE

[aiqa]

Strongly disagree on the blood lilly suggestions. The whole idea about the blood lilly is that is makes lilly heals dps neutral. Basically giving lilly heals the same function as ogcd heals, without making them ogcd. Adding that mechanics into an attack spell gives lilly heals an opportunity costs like any other gcd. And then they'd have to nerf WHM damage to keep its dps in line with other healers, and it once again lacks "ogcd" healing compared to other healers.

[Galvuu]

Strongly disagree on the blood lilly suggestions. The whole idea about the blood lilly is that is makes lilly heals dps neutral. Basically giving lilly heals the same function as ogcd heals, without making them ogcd. Adding that mechanics into an attack spell gives lilly heals an opportunity costs like any other gcd. And then they'd have to nerf WHM damage to keep its dps in line with other healers, and it once again lacks "ogcd" healing compared to other healers.

I actually think a dps lily spender that's instant cast and low potency (like 150 or 200) is a good solution to sometimes being "forced" to use a lily when you don't need healing but you're about to cap. Also provides a meaningful movement option without being a strict upgrade over Glare (so you'd be rewarded for finding a way to turret).

[aiqa]

I actually think a dps lily spender that's instant cast and low potency (like 150 or 200) is a good solution to sometimes being "forced" to use a lily when you don't need healing but you're about to cap. Also provides a meaningful movement option without being a strict upgrade over Glare (so you'd be rewarded for finding a way to turret).

150 or 200 potency is still an upgrade over Glare spam. Lillies are now perfect dps neutral, any added damage to lilly mechanics is a dps upgrade. And you act like this would be an overal upgrade, it's not going work like that. Damage output is balanced towards the result, not towards the individual spells. This will just mean other parts of WHM have to be nerfed and it has to make more choices between doing more damage and healing. Which is the exact thing they avoided by adding the lilly mechanic. And they did that because WHM players had complained for ages they lacked ogcd, but the devs wanted to keep WHM more gcd focussed. And when heals are not needed, you can already use the lilly heals just for movement and still be fully dps neutral.

So again nope, it's a terrible idea. This will return WHM to "we are lacking ogcd heals", and ruins a perfectly fine mechanic.

[Galvuu]

150 or 200 potency is still an upgrade over Glare spam. Lillies are now perfect dps neutral, any added damage to lilly mechanics is a dps upgrade. And you act like this would be an overal upgrade, it's not going work like that. Damage output is balanced towards the result, not towards the individual spells. This will just mean other parts of WHM have to be nerfed and it has to make more choices between doing more damage and healing. Which is the exact thing they avoided by adding the lilly mechanic. And they did that because WHM players had complained for ages they lacked ogcd, but the devs wanted to keep WHM more gcd focussed. And when heals are not needed, you can already use the lilly heals just for movement and still be fully dps neutral.

So again nope, it's a terrible idea. This will return WHM to "we are lacking ogcd heals", and ruins a perfectly fine mechanic.

I mean, this comes down to encounter design. TOP, P8S and P12S aside, it's common to run into the issue where you overcap on lilies and just throw them into the air so you don't overcap. The cadence of damage (and mechanics overall) is so slow that, aside from a few moments of burst healing, there is nothing to use the lilies for. The lilies themselves when used on Rapture are not even that good unless your cohealer is competent (the raw healing output on Rapture is low). And if your cohealer is competent, well, you won't be needing more than one and Asylum/Liturgy/Temperance anyway. I frequently find myself burning the lilies for movement and to make sure I have Misery for the 2 min burst.
If tank self-healing does get nerfed, then perhaps some of those can be used effectively as Solaces (especially if, some day, FF XIV remembers bosses can do more than 2 auto attacks a minute). Otherwise, it's still optimal to "heal nothing" to line up your Misery. I was just proposing a more exciting use for those lilies. I doubt a 150/300 potency gain per minute is unbalanceable. But I guess I agree with you on one thing- it sure would be nice if there was at least enough incoming damage to justify dropping a few Solaces/Raptures every 30s without it being worthless overhealing.

[aiqa]

I mean, this comes down to encounter design. TOP, P8S and P12S aside, it's common to run into the issue where you overcap on lilies and just throw them into the air so you don't overcap. The cadence of damage (and mechanics overall) is so slow that, aside from a few moments of burst healing, there is nothing to use the lilies for.

They can change the direction of content design. Adding damage abilities to build blood lillies would almost certainly be locked in forever.

The lilies themselves when used on Rapture are not even that good unless your cohealer is competent (the raw healing output on Rapture is low). And if your cohealer is competent, well, you won't be needing more than one and Asylum/Liturgy/Temperance anyway.

Rapture is quite strong with Plenary Indulgence. And it's the only option for Plenary Indulgence that is ogcd ish.

I frequently find myself burning the lilies for movement and to make sure I have Misery for the 2 min burst.
If tank self-healing does get nerfed, then perhaps some of those can be used effectively as Solaces (especially if, some day, FF XIV remembers bosses can do more than 2 auto attacks a minute). Otherwise, it's still optimal to "heal nothing" to line up your Misery. I was just proposing a more exciting use for those lilies.

There is no way to balance dps with healing in FF, dps always win out until healing is so low you can't survive. So add a dps option for lillies and that wins 99% of the time. I am all for more fun, but this has to big downsides. If the devs want to add more dps spells for fun, they can do that without messing with the lilly mechanic.

I doubt a 150/300 potency gain per minute is unbalanceable. But I guess I agree with you on one thing- it sure would be nice if there was at least enough incoming damage to justify dropping a few Solaces/Raptures every 30s without it being worthless overhealing.

You suggested 150 to 200 potency per cast. Lillies build up at a rate of 1 per 20 seconds. So that is 450 to 600 potency per minute, which is quite significant. But sure you can just lower that 50 to 100 potency per cast to get to the 150 to 300 per minute.

I would judge that as follows: as long the damage is worth slotting the spell on your hotbar it will return WHM to avoiding healing.

[Galvuu]

They can change the direction of content design. Adding damage abilities to build blood lillies would almost certainly be locked in forever.
(...)
There is no way to balance dps with healing in FF, dps always win out until healing is so low you can't survive. So add a dps option for lillies and that wins 99% of the time. I am all for more fun, but this has to big downsides. If the devs want to add more dps spells for fun, they can do that without messing with the lilly mechanic.
(...)
You suggested 150 to 200 potency per cast. Lillies build up at a rate of 1 per 20 seconds. So that is 450 to 600 potency per minute, which is quite significant. But sure you can just lower that 50 to 100 potency per cast to get to the 150 to 300 per minute.

You're implicitly touching on one of the pain points by assuming WHMs would dump all their lilies on the damage option, and that the damage option would be optimal 9/10 times. I was (perhaps naively) assuming 1/2 per min would be required for healing.
I'm not blaming you, either- as far as healing is concerned, encounter design is so broken we, collectively, as a playerbase, have come to expect that most healing tools aren't necessary to begin with and are superfluous.
Of course, as you said, we're discussing bandaids- ideally, they'd change their encounter philosophy. And I hope they do, but I'm going to be honest, I'm losing faith in their ability to even attempt to do so.
I want to believe, but I'm becoming increasingly uneasy the more info drips out as we get closer to DT... I feel that the team has sat on this formula for so long that any creativity has gone stale. I don't even know if they can turn this around. But we might as well make some noise and get them riled up- maybe it does work to some extent!

[ForsakenRoe]

I actually think a dps lily spender that's instant cast and low potency (like 150 or 200) is a good solution to sometimes being "forced" to use a lily when you don't need healing but you're about to cap. Also provides a meaningful movement option without being a strict upgrade over Glare (so you'd be rewarded for finding a way to turret).

A more sensible solution than a damage option (which just becomes 'the best option' and causes WHM to want to avoid healing entirely as with SHB Misery when it was a damage loss) is to have a Barrier application spender, that is weaker than SCH/SGE equivalents. For example, SCH shields are 540p for Adlo, and 320 for Succor. So why not let WHM apply Barriers with 400-500p and 200-250p respectively, so that if we don't 'need' healing and don't want to cap, we can still make use of a Barrier. I've even got names for them: Afflatus Bastion, and Afflatus Sanctuary

Of course, this goes against the Pure/Barrier split a little, but I think it's far better that than ending up with some players purposely not healing because 'itd cost me a damage resource'

[Galvuu]

A more sensible solution than a damage option (which just becomes 'the best option' and causes WHM to want to avoid healing entirely as with SHB Misery when it was a damage loss) is to have a Barrier application spender, that is weaker than SCH/SGE equivalents. For example, SCH shields are 540p for Adlo, and 320 for Succor. So why not let WHM apply Barriers with 400-500p and 200-250p respectively, so that if we don't 'need' healing and don't want to cap, we can still make use of a Barrier. I've even got names for them: Afflatus Bastion, and Afflatus Sanctuary

Of course, this goes against the Pure/Barrier split a little, but I think it's far better that than ending up with some players purposely not healing because 'itd cost me a damage resource'

Let's be honest. Even SE doesn't seem to care about the barrier/pure healer split anymore. They keep giving barriers to pure healers and raw healing to shielders. Come DT, that split will have become one of the most pointless distinctions this game ever made. I can't believe we lost the dual-sect AST for this nonsense...

[Allegor]

Of course, this goes against the Pure/Barrier split...

Wait, that's still a thing? I haven't read much into it but since AST is getting like, 4 new barrier/mits and WHM's lv 100 ability is an aoe barrier, I assumed they officially abolished the 'pure/barrier' split already. It feels counterproductive to give "pure" healers that many defensives when that's what SCH and SGE are (allegedly) for.

[AmiableApkallu]

Wait, that's still a thing? I haven't read much into it but since AST is getting like, 4 new barrier/mits and WHM's lv 100 ability is an aoe barrier, I assumed they officially abolished the 'pure/barrier' split already. It feels counterproductive to give "pure" healers that many defensives when that's what SCH and SGE are (allegedly) for.

WHM's new AoE barrier is a follow up to Temperance, which is quite possibly the most straightjacketed, stingiest way to give the job an AoE barrier. The job is still solidly on the "pure" side of the split. /two cents