The changes to Astrologian are upsetting

[Kissune]

I feel like people that thought tank single target healing in abyssos was hard or excessive just got bad tanks and the tanks successfully panned off responsibility onto the healer

It’s why abyssos damage profiles were so bad, it required the tanks and DPS to press buttons they functionally had no incentive to press and if they didn’t press it responsibility fell to the healer but it was easy to hide not pressing the button you were supposed to press amongst the other mitigation used so the healer could never fight back

Healers had all the responsibility yet none of the control

Yeah, my tanks weren't even like, particularly amazing. They missed mit a lot, but apart from occasionally needing to burn an extra ED, lustrate, or druochole, it didn't really affect me. I just kinda took it in stride when they fucked up.

[Aravell]

I checked my week 1 P7S kill too just to see.

In 11:08, our tanks took 2900 DTPS (WAR) and 2300 DTPS (DRK), both our healers did about 750 single target HPS each (SCH+WHM). Meanwhile, our WAR did about 900 single target HPS.

Again, what is the point of a healing requirement increase if the tanks can cover so much of it entirely for free?

[Kissune]

Y'all look at the logs. for these tiers. Damage from things like p5s poison is 500-700+ damage TPS on tanks on top of autos that are also 700+ dtps and during other raid-wide damage. Total tank damage taken person even in just tier 2 was 3000+ because of frequent double tank busters, DoTs and the pairing of raid mechanics with high tank damage. Even looking back at tank healing, it's still significantly under healer ST healing them. If you are dpsing full uptime outside of required aspected helios/helios you'll see that the accumulated healing on a tank from exaltation, CI, and ED will be your top heals to the tank.

P7s for example, tanks were taking about 2.1mil damage over the course of the fight. They would mitigate about 700k damage before that, and absorb/heal another 700k. (roughly, and thats being generous on behalf of tank heal/mits with tanks that actually hit healing parses above blue) Thats still 1.4m healing done by healers to a single tank. (one of two tanks). On p7s you would see something like 125k healing from ED. 93k Intersection shield. 42k Intersection heal. exaltation 100k, + however many times you use CO, CU, Lady, earthly star and horoscope(unaspected) just for extra tank healing. You're hitting over 400k of the entire fight's remaining 1.4m healing on healing up single target damage from a SINGLE healer.

But thats assuming you're playing correctly and at a high level where you avoid overcasting GCD's. Even a single healer throwing out extra GCD heals is going to make your OGCD's seem less useful. But make no mistake the amount of tank damage we've had to heal is significantly higher than previous expansions. The log data doesn't lie.

That said: we're still spamming 1 constantly as healers, despite the fact that we are doing more OGCD healing and more micromanagement than any other expansion prior to endwalker. That can skew your sense of what you're actually doing and what impact you're having on tank healing. But yes, we did have more tank healing this expansion. Don't take my word for it though, go compare SHB logs to EW logs. Look at the tank damage taken vs healer casts and what healing was effective. (and if you see excess regen and aspect benefic casts then something is wrong with the healer's play)

Oh actually yeah, one more thing. I looked at the logs for p7s and saw how much the tanks mitigated/absorbed. I completely removed all healing from the logs, and ignored stuff like heart of light/shake it off/etc, as well as cutting out party mitigation on reprisal, only counting the mit done to tanks. It was just shy of 1.7mil mitigated/absorbed on p7s. Meaning wow, yeah, that confirms it dude. Your tanks just sucked, and you felt like you were useful bc you were carrying bad players. That explains so, so much.

[Zolvolt]

I checked my week 1 P7S kill too just to see.

In 11:08, our tanks took 2900 DTPS (WAR) and 2300 DTPS (DRK), both our healers did about 750 single target HPS each (SCH+WHM). Meanwhile, our WAR did about 900 single target HPS.

Again, what is the point of a healing requirement increase if the tanks can cover so much of it entirely for free?

Your ST hps numbers seem off to me. My week 1 was GNB/PLD AST/SGE.
GNB DTPS 3052 STHPS:846 (no mit) 1915(mit)
PLD DTPS: 2829 STHPS:836 (no mit) 1927(mit)
My HPS on GNB: 1865.8
Sage HPS on GNB: 1332.5
My HPS on PLD: 1118.9
Sage HPS on PLD: 1866.2

my top heals on tanks:
GNB: 1.) Exaltation 2.) Essential Dignity 3.) Stellar Explosion
PLD: 1.) Stellar Explosion 2.) Wheel of Fortune 3.) Intersection (shield)

[Aravell]

Your ST hps numbers seem off to me. My week 1 was GNB/PLD AST/SGE.
GNB DTPS 3052 STHPS:846 (no mit) 1915(mit)
PLD DTPS: 2829 STHPS:836 (no mit) 1927(mit)
My HPS on GNB: 1865.8
Sage HPS on GNB: 1332.5
My HPS on PLD: 1118.9
Sage HPS on PLD: 1866.2

my top heals on tanks:
GNB: 1.) Exaltation 2.) Essential Dignity 3.) Stellar Explosion
PLD: 1.) Stellar Explosion 2.) Wheel of Fortune 3.) Intersection (shield)

The argument was about single target abilities being useful or obsolete, so I counted only abilities that specifically targets 1 tank. I didn't count any incidental AoE healing or tank mitigations.

I only counted single target healing and effective healing. Excog, Embrace, Benison, Aquaveil, Nascent Flash etc.

[Cleretic]

I feel like people that thought tank single target healing in abyssos was hard or excessive just got bad tanks and the tanks successfully panned off responsibility onto the healer

I feel like a lot of the problems with healers kinda stem from the fact that for us to have any fun with the primary element of our job, we require other players to be bad at theirs. It's a kind of weird thing to realize; I don't want harder content, I want worse tanks.

Astrologian used to at least have their own minigame going on that could exist regardless of if your tank knew which end of the gunblade the bullets come out of, but apparently that was a bug, not a feature.

[Supersnow845]

I feel like a lot of the problems with healers kinda stem from the fact that for us to have any fun with the primary element of our job, we require other players to be bad at theirs.

Astrologian used to at least have their own minigame going on that could exist regardless of if your tank knew which end of the gunblade the bullets come out of, but apparently that was a bug, not a feature.

That is something I fully agree with in casual content, nier raids with a bad party are about the most fun you can have with a healer in casual content but if you had a bad party in abyssos your party just blew up because the DOT’s were beyond your ability to triage if they weren’t mitigated properly

Even week 5-6 if there weren’t 2-3 mits on those bleedwides you’d struggle to keep the party alive even with both healers GCD heal spamming

[Aravell]

I feel like a lot of the problems with healers kinda stem from the fact that for us to have any fun with the primary element of our job, we require other players to be bad at theirs.

Astrologian used to at least have their own minigame going on that could exist regardless of if your tank knew which end of the gunblade the bullets come out of, but apparently that was a bug, not a feature.

There's actually 3 ways to make the healer relevant:

1) Every other player is incredibly bad. Not using defensives, not stepping out of orange and eating vuln stacks like candy.

2) Limit every other job in how long they can survive without a healer. Basically nerf tank defensives and remove most of the DPS party healing/mitigation. Force the rest of the party to become unable to survive for long when the healer goes down.

3) Allow the content itself to do more to pressure the healer. Random attacks that ignore aggro, crit autos, crit busters, bleeds, etc.

Number 1 is of course not a regular occurrence, number 2 would make tank players mad because they've experienced godhood, so number 3 remains the only feasible option. However, there is no possible way to design fights to output enough damage to pressure an experienced healer while also letting new healers clear.

And that's why people have been asking for a cut to everyone's healing output so damage can be threatening again.

[Kissune]

The argument was about single target abilities being useful or obsolete, so I counted only abilities that specifically targets 1 tank. I didn't count any incidental AoE healing or tank mitigations.

I only counted single target healing and effective healing. Excog, Embrace, Benison, Aquaveil, Nascent Flash etc.

I checked my p7s clear using the same metrics as him and uh... wow.
WAR DTPS 3162 STHPS 1244 (no mit) 2431 (mit)
GNB DTPS 2572 STHPS 937 (no mit) 2618 (mit)

My HPS on WAR incl AoE: 675
Sage HPS on WAR incl AoE: 1910 (kardia counted for about 800 of that)
My HPS on GNB incl AoE: 1440
Sage HPS on GNB incl AoE: 1296
My HPS on WAR ST only: 109
Sage HPS on WAR ST only (not including kardia): 141
Sage HPS on WAR ST only (including kardia): 955
My HPS on GNB ST only: 496
Sage HPS on GNB ST only: 370

My top heals on tanks (incl aoe):
GNB: 1. Rapture 2. Liturgy 3. Benison
WAR: 1. Rapture 2. Assize 3. Liturgy
My sage top heals on tanks
GNB: 1. Kerakeia 2. Taurochole 3. Kerachole
WAR: 1. Kardia (duh) 2. Kerachole 3. Kerakeia

Yeah I uh... Think this guy just had really shit tanks and was gaslit into thinking single target healing is necessary bc his tanks wouldn't do their job. The sage did more healing than me, but like... the amount of GCD and oGCD casts we had to do was quite low. And the amount that were *actually* needed, and not just padding numbers... no idea. Definitely less than the total.

That's my like, entire point here. We can definitely *use* our single target abilities, but they're not like... actually needed. Mit on tanks rarely matters unless you're trying to completely eliminate a bleed buster, which we did often, even with the warrior taking the shared buster solo (that's why the WAR dtps is so much higher)

This also doesn't account for the glaring problem of... this is entirely w1 stats. What happens w2, w3 onwards as we get more gear and we're needed even less? AST's rng card system is what kept me entertained as the heal/mitchecks got lighter than they already were... and now it's gone, and I got bozo here telling me I should be happy bc I have even more single target stuff to not use once the initial prog is over with, at the cost of the only thing that made reclears bearable?

[Supersnow845]

What if they bought back royal road but made it so it was more of a neutral swap depending on the circumstances

Like say you got 2 ranged in a light party, unless you want to give your melee card to the tank (which depending on if they are bursting properly can actually be good) you could royal road one of your other cards to flip spear to balance

So say the “healing cards” (spire and ewer) could be used to flip spear to balance and the tank cards (bole and arrow) could be used to flip balance to spear

That way if you are willing to give up a bit of the healing you can always play a card optimally