Bring Back Kaiten

[CelestiCer]

I mean, you described the answer yourself - in burst phase, its a choice between using Continuation, using mit or trying to weave both and potentially screwing up, which is actually a meaningful choice, as GNB actually has situations where they might have to do something other than Continuation as their oGCD or try and fit two things in same GCD window (which won't always work), unlike SAM's Kaiten.

Where are all these non-Samurai players coming from DX< !?

Getting the feeling all players do is skim over the skill description and go " Oh you press it here and here always, there for meaningless choice hurr-durr ", while completely ignoring the balancing act you're required to do with Hissatsu: Kaiten and your resource. It's seemingly easy face value yes... way different to keep on doing this to perfection all the time at all levels of content and difficulty. You will mess this up when even the best of players don't have perfect logs all the time, there's no question about this. It's up to you the player your choice to execute perfectly if you can without ever wasting a single Kenki resource with it - and there lies the satisfaction which yes is a choice... you reach perfect execution through your " decision making ".

Analogy... Same way how it's your choice to keep on casting " Dosis III " it's not something that's hard to miss? but to optimally do it all the time and not skip a cast? is something vs the " decision " to not do it or miss-execute it. And we can mock the degree of any skills decision making all we want... yet no one seems to ever do this with Shinten spamming... when it comes to Kaiten's decision making argument... ( Another 1 year old argument... reused... )

[Arohk]

" Oh you press it here and here always, there for meaningless choice hurr-durr

You can best compare it to Dark knight, DRk actually has a choice here, does he want to spend 3000 MP for one more attack but cant use his shield or is it better to keep MP?
Kaiten was a "must always use" situation, just stay above 20 kenki, use Shinten only at 45+.

I already made some suggestions earlier on how to rework Kaiten.

Ah yeah if you struggle with using mitigation on Gunbreaker because of continuation, thats a skill issue, you don't have to use all your mitigation when the boss is already casting a tankbuster, they last long enough to be used before that.
I often use my Mitigation (20%) 10 seconds before the tankbuster is coming so i don't have to weave it into continuation.

[TheDustyOne]

You can best compare it to Dark knight, DRk actually has a choice here, does he want to spend 3000 MP for one more attack but cant use his shield or is it better to keep MP?
Kaiten was a "must always use" situation, just stay above 20 kenki, use Shinten only at 45+.

Terrible example, it's the same choice. "Do I spend 3k MP on Edge and risk not having enough for TBN when it's needed" vs "Do I spend 25 Kenki on Shinten and risk not having enough for Kaiten when it's needed". Even in your example of "just stay above 20" is the same as DRK, just stay above 3k MP.

[CelestiCer]

You can best compare it to Dark knight, DRk actually has a choice here, does he want to spend 3000 MP for one more attack but cant use his shield or is it better to keep MP?
Kaiten was a "must always use" situation, just stay above 20 kenki, use Shinten only at 45+.

You... and so many others seem to not grasp...

Shrugging off 20 Kenki for Kaiten and the not often mentioned... holding 100 Kenki at best for Raidbuffs and not overcapping, are decisions you have to make. You lot are not doing your rotation perfectly all the time, every pull, every fight on your own Jobs. I don't even need to look up logs, because we're Human. We're not perfectly playing AI's. The balancing act of it is engaging, fun and yes you come at that conclusion with decision making... when not every fight and situation is the same, when the game gives you so many ways not to do it perfectly? is the literal point of what you all are mockingly pointing out... it's up to the users to create the situation in our rotation and balance our resources perfectly that not even the best of players do perfectly all the time effortlessly. But in there lies the satisfaction of executing something that takes effort to perfectly do all the time consistently? when we're obviously not perfect...

Such bravado to mock it as easy and meaningless... When none of you have a log of perfectly executed Kaiten while perfectly balancing max Kenki for raid bursts, is quite the
boastfulness. I don't even know where this Ego is coming from... maybe I'm that terrible of a player. Heck I'll be surprised if they do it with something lesser which is the current awful " Shinten Spamming " with getting AST cards, which even this? is also never mentioned by Kaiten nay-sayers... when are you all defending Shinten Spamming for how much more better/functional/satisfying/complex it is? that's what I like to know... as that's the current alternative due to not having Kaiten anymore.

Even then! I still do not know where all these Non Samurai's come from to Samurai threads, lecturing Samurai mains on what they should like more! That's another thing we're not even at the subjectively finding something more Fun part of this back and forth... we're only at functionality which we're going in circles cause people are sadly like a pile of bricks XD !!

Which is fine! we get to entertain my favorite hobby which is bumping Kaiten threads all day " Cause I want Kaiten back!! " mhm.

[Lancer82]

Bring it back!!

[Deo14]

I mean, you described the answer yourself - in burst phase, its a choice between using Continuation, using mit or trying to weave both and potentially screwing up, which is actually a meaningful choice, as GNB actually has situations where they might have to do something other than Continuation as their oGCD or try and fit two things in same GCD window (which won't always work), unlike SAM's Kaiten.

Are you aware that Kaiten did cost 20 Kenki? Are you sure that losing 180/200/240/280 is meaningful choice? It's not really a choice, it's damage control, you might deal more damage if you just clipped it. Even if you wanted to call it a meaningful choice, it's not normal to struggle with double weaving at 2.40+, you would need to have more than 100ms ping to have that problems. So the "choice" comes not from job design, but from terrible server infrastructure.

Arguing about double weaving seems pretty off, SAM also needs to double weave every now and then with Third Eye (burst phase has 15 GCDs with 10-13 oGCDs, so if there's raidwide in burst, you will very likely need to double weave), and sometimes when you didn't keep track of your resources, you need to use Shoha so you won't overwrite meditation stack. Because typical slow SAM has 2.14-2.15 GCD, while GNB has regular 2.40+, it makes SAM more prone to fucking up double weaves. You used to need to always have 1 free weave spot before Iaijutsu for Kaiten, and you even needed to make sure you have 20 Kenki, which is already more involved than just pressing continuation after every Gnashing Fang skill.

Because Kaiten did cost 20 Kaiten, and had strict place in your rotation (just like Gnashing Fang/Continuation), you were supposed to use it (just like Gnashing Fang/Continuation), if you didn't, you simply lost potency (just like Gnashing Fang/Continuation) and it even had some improvisation and choice (just like Gnashing Fang/Continuation) - if you had only 10/15 Kenki, you could delay Midare by 1-2 GCD and build that last 5/10 Kenki without overwriting Sen.

[TheDustyOne]

While a slightly better proposition that keeps Kenki management, it's also more punishing in that it now forces 20 Kenki, whereas messing up Kenki management with Kaiten as a dedicated button means that, while damage is still lost, it's less destructive to a rotation overall than overcapping on a Sen. There'd also be the issue of earlier levels not having Kenki, as well as the earliest levels with Kenki not generating enough to use Iaijutsu, which would cause a lot of other potential imbalances if you decided to just increase the amount of Kenki generated at those levels.

The big thing Kaiten did overall was marry the sub-mechanic of Kenki with the main mechanic of Sen, bringing the kit into a more cohesive whole rather than two disparate mechanics that just happen to exist. It's what made pre-6.1 Samurai such a well designed job.

[TheDustyOne]

The ultimate result of only caring about button bloat, without any regard for what buttons you end up culling, ends up inevitably with something closer to healer "rotations". You could easily argue "oh, Shinten spam is meaningless, just add 50/100 extra potency to the weaponskills that give Kenki instead", after all, "it saves a hotkey". One step further might be "Oh we don't need Yukikaze, Midare can be one Sen, and Higanbana removed", since it will "save a hotkey".

I'm all for merging and culling when it's called for, but Kaiten wasn't one of those times, I'd rather have condensed weaponskill combos long before seeing Kaiten removed although that's a discussion for another time.

[Godzillaxpowerrangers]

Kaiten will come back in 7.0 as a two minute cd skill that gives everyone one basic combo skill a 1% crit increase. Calling it now.

[RyuuZero]

Bring Back Kaiten

as long as it's an ability that has a 5 second, costs 20 Kenki and contributes to all Weaponskills in some meaningful way, we're good. Preferably be Kaiten the Skill that Introduces the Kenki Resource, how it used to be. Because with Kaiten it doesn't matter what else they'll add to the Samurai, The Job will be Fun once more.