Crazy Idea: Split SCH from ARC and make it a 30+ job like HW

[Mimilu]

I've said it in other threads and I'll say it here: I think they should give SCH its own starting class so new players have a second healer to choose from. °˖✧◝(⁰▿⁰)◜✧˖°
With this, new players would have access to a healer with a special mechanic and oGCD heals earlier, which would contrast CNJ/WHM who don't receive their first healing oGCD until 50 (Benediction) and their special mechanic (Lilies) at 52.

[BokoToloko]

Your argument highly suggests so.

That's just your basless assumption. The fact you've only said that without further elaboration only makes it clearer.

The fact that the relaunch made ACN, SMN, SCH as pet jobs is already a give-away that it is going to follow what was done with 10,11,12, and 13, with a twist, hence the Egis. I am not going to lie, I was not a fan of the egis, at first, but I thought, if they already gave us the ability to call on the primals at such an early phase of the game, then they'll easily run out of gimmicks... actually, they're doing it right now with how they only introduced Solar Bahamut for the entirety of DT. They wanted SMN to be more offensive compared to 11 where it was relegated as discount WHM with Avatars and that supportive aspect has been given to SCH.

Given how SCH evolved, it has proven to be closer to what a summoner is than the actual SMN job. Sure SCH has issues of its own, but if we're going to just focus on the pet, then it is still faithful to what a summoner is. The only thing missing to it is Enkindle.

Honestly, these pharagraphs give me the impression than rather than being me who is forcing my version on others it's actually you and the catboy above who are hellbent in claiming your version as the objectively right one. And neither is.

It's just the current version hinges more on flashy apparitions than being a pet, like it or hate it. And if there's ONE common point among all FF summons, barring FF11, (even in FF14 because, let's face it, the primals themselves are the actual summons, the summoners canonically only handle the lite versions, regardless of the duration) is that they are ALWAYS flashy. Whether it's being an avatar or an AoE spell, it was never a flimsy thingy. And if you don't like it, you're welcome not to. But don't pretend it's YOUR version that's right when there is nothing that backs you up.

[rawker]

Wait so it is wrong to contest the removal of a mechanic that drew you into playing the job, in the fist place? If it didn't start off as one, i will not give any time or attention. Other people will. So telling me that my version is right is wrong because my argument is rooted to the job's history. Let's see what happens if let's say they decided GNB to be the next job to be braindead. Let's see how GNB mains will react? Quite sure it won't be pretty.

[Supersnow845]

That's just your basless assumption. The fact you've only said that without further elaboration only makes it clearer.


Honestly, these pharagraphs give me the impression than rather than being me who is forcing my version on others it's actually you and the catboy above who are hellbent in claiming your version as the objectively right one. And neither is.

It's just the current version hinges more on flashy apparitions than being a pet, like it or hate it. And if there's ONE common point among all FF summons, barring FF11, (even in FF14 because, let's face it, the primals themselves are the actual summons, the summoners canonically only handle the lite versions, regardless of the duration) is that they are ALWAYS flashy. Whether it's being an avatar or an AoE spell, it was never a flimsy thingy. And if you don't like it, you're welcome not to. But don't pretend it's YOUR version that's right when there is nothing that backs you up.

I never claimed my vision as the right one, I said when I think of SMN I don’t think raidwide AOE then elemental mage and you came in and said “acshooly 14 panders to old FF games and that’s what old SMN’s were”

I don’t really particularly care what old FF SMN’s were. The job quests of SMN before they got changed justified why we couldn’t summon primals but could summon Demi’s, the primal upgrade at 90 messes with that lore. The allagen roots of the job explain the poison DOT’s, modern SMN doesn’t have DOT’s and doesn’t have a reason to still have a skill called “fester” considering that relied on poison DOT’s. Modern SMN doesn’t justify using carbuncle as a foundation for your summons, it’s just a holdover from ACN. Old SMN justified the ability to have 1 demi always out and SCH justifies lily

I don’t like modern SMN but that was never my point, my point was that SCH feels more like a SMN to me because the idea you are actively controlling your summon to generate advantage to yourself including positioning, controlled desummoning and temporary upgrades feels more like a SMN than whatever modern SMN is doing and i don’t care which side of the design of the many FF games you use to attempt to justify either side. The modern SMN job quests make little to no sense, the flow on from ACN makes little sense and the job doesn’t feel like a SMN to me, I feel like an elemental mage. However that’s my opinion, nowhere did I say you have to think that way. I didnt even particularly like Old SMN either, my entire point centred on the fact that active control over lily makes SCH feel more like a summoning job

[Rowde]

I've been advocating for this for years, so they no longer have to arbitrarily tie SCH identity to ACN/SMN anymore, or vice versa... one of them really doesn't need aetherflow mechanics

and at the end of the day, i think this is the direction they're moving towards anyway since back in ARR all the actions of ACN used to be shared between all 3 (ACN/SCH/SMN) but... iirc in SHADOWBRINGERS, not even Endwalker, the previous expansion, all of SCH actions where changed to unique SCH only actions. Including Physick, which is the real head scratcher for me, since SMN has this completely useless spell level 52+ when they could easily just change ACN/SMN version to scale off INT instead of MND and it would change nothing for the SCH version of the spell.

the only ability that is still shared between all 3 is Resurrection, and what ability has been specifically called out at the LL prior to expansion releases twice in a row as an ability they've been considering removing from the SMN kit?

I wouldn't be surprised if this doesn't happen until/if/when they remove classes altogether, which is another thing that I've been saying they should have done for years to clean up the lower levels.

[Sjol]

We're a decade into FFXIV and I'm not sure it matters where the job started compared to where it's going. Summoning lore is all over the place, especially with ShB and EW and creation magic. In prior games summons always had a time limit for how long you could control them then they would go away. That doesn't really line up great with a pet job. I do want a good pet job. I would even love a non-limited pet job. I don't need that job to be SMN or SCH.

And none of that particularly matters to discussion at hand because it was a question about splitting off SCH from ACN because they have almost nothing to do with each other mechanically. It could be in the form of a new class, though that seems unviable given that you get your faerie right away. It could be the first of the current jobs to get a new storyline starting at level 1. It could just go be a HW-style job that starts at 30 because for the moment that's what is acts most like today. If you ditch Resurrection or make it SCH only you have a complete clean separation of abilities.

It would also allow SMN to ditch Physick, which really has no place on a magical DPS. Resurrection, I'm going to leave alone because there's a thousand comments on that already.

[Pip_Chick]

I am going to be on the side of the contrarians here and agree with OP. But mostly because I see far too often (especially back when SMN had a 2 year opener), people did not know how to play the "other" job. Or just struggle with it due to lack of experience.
If you levelled SMN, you would barely know how SCH worked or vice-versa, if you levelled SCH you would not know how SMN worked.
So splitting them would be a good option! I would go as far as to say they should have introduced a new class from level 1 so it can counter WHM, giving players a shield healer to start with and to learn, so they don't get as confused as to how the job works and how are they supposed to heal when on a shield healer.

I also have a semi-ok solution for it! Put it in the Marauder guild instead of the misleading gun-wielding class that never came. You could make it just an ACN (Arcanist) with a different name that would be more focused on healing and shielding rather than damage. It would also be easier for players to find the SCH Job quest since the guy who gives it to them is right there. The story could be different leaning more on you being a separate branch of ACN that was specifically formed to aid the marauders of Limsa in battles, so they focus more on healing/shielding. Also having a carbuncle pet (possibly different colours) that would passively heal (hence why the Faeries can be turned into Carby, but SMN Carby can't be turned into Faeries).

[SeverianLyonesse]

Even though it didn't originate in HW, if they changed the story up just a little bit, you could have it be a job that starts at 30 just like the HW jobs. You could also remove the prereq that you have a job at 50. It would be weird, but it would finally split the SCH and SMN jobs from the same XP track, which I'm sure a lot of people love, but it does make it the very odd job/class out.

An alternative would be to give it an alternative class (a new one) to start from but that's a ton more work.

Can't change titles (but it should read ACN)

I would do this as well as split NIN from Rogue. Both of those jobs were kind of special ARR additions anyway, and they are also the least related to their respective classes.

[Deceptus]

Spaghetti code won't let them.

[BokoToloko]

snip

Usually, when you say something is your opinion, you make it clear that it IS so. You did not. You can trace back to your own comments and you will see that stated very bluntly "X" is "X", which is usually what people do when stating objective facts, not opinions. Even less when you're trying to refute me with them.

But, you know what? Even if we limited ourselves to just FF14 (which, duuh, is called a Final Fantasy, not Trials of Mana, not Baldur's Gate; and yes, previous games DO matter because the set up conventions for the whole franchise that the company WILL follow and the fans WILL expect), your opinion would STILL not hold up to further scrutiny.

The poison DoT had NOTHING to do with Allagan lore. They were unrelatedly drawn from Arcanist lore which, itself, draws the art of arcanima from the Southern Seas, namely Aloalo. And if you played that Variant dungeon, you would quickly noticed that it had at least 2 boss with an interestingly close aesthetic to Scholars, not to Summoners. Summoner lore literally began by slapping the summons on a promising Arcanist (the WoL). Summoners, from the start, were Arcanist and Summoners, not just one class/job.

But if you want to discuss things that aren't explained... be thorough about it. Begin not with Endwalker. Begin with Stormblood where we, somehow, manage to summon Demi-Bahamut after being told in Heavensward we couldn't summon more Egis, let alone a boosted version called Demi of one of the most powerful primals to ever exist, because we just didn't have the aetheric capacity (lore speak for: "nuh-huh, no more summons"). And, obviously, you'll also have to decry Demi-Phoenix too. And if your answer to that is "we got stronger", why can't we get stronger to evolve the Egi into Demi versions?

And what SMN lore and gameplays DID entail was attuning yourself (Trance) to primals essences (which would also mean attuning to their element, too, in case you missed it) or call forth watered down versions, aka Egis. In other words, they were Primalmancers and, yes, since the primals we did attune had element linked to, that would "make us Elemental Mages" (which is as absurd to deride as it is to say "Ninjas are just elemental mages, duh"). And the fact you even say Scholars are closer to be summoners just betray your utter lack of knowledge, as the fairies are literal familiars with a conscience on their own and had nothing to do with Primals, which was pretty much all summoning boiled down to, with room for both gameplay versions.

Let me spare you the trouble and I'll spell your actual thoughts in a simple phrase: "I want a pet job". Period. It's that simple.

Wait so it is wrong to contest the removal of a mechanic that drew you into playing the job, in the fist place? If it didn't start off as one, i will not give any time or attention. Other people will. So telling me that my version is right is wrong because my argument is rooted to the job's history. Let's see what happens if let's say they decided GNB to be the next job to be braindead. Let's see how GNB mains will react? Quite sure it won't be pretty.

If you did this about the mechanics and how braindead it is, which a fair point, we wouldn't be having this discussion. And you did not make it just about gameplay being braindead. And I would rather they actually polished what we got now into an actually engaging job rather than just retrace steps only to trip with old problems again because, newsflash, they're just unable to make a satisfactory pet gameplay or a DoT gameplay (DoT mechanics will always be dead on arrival until SE takes a page from WoW again).