Jobs feel pretty much complete with Dawntrail no?

[HappyHubris]

What else can they add aside from polishing up the animations or upgrading existing abilities like fire 3 into fire 4 and adding fire 5 if I use black mage as an example.

Maybe 8.0 will just be potency upgrades and final revisions to what we get in dawntrail, with a major focus on both new/old content and encounter design instead of job advancement? They could rework the entire low level experience to make the game much more fun at all levels.

It feels to me like if they just keep piling on new actions and every expansion after dawntrail that things are going to be too busy and it's just like, a waste of development budget?

We're staying at level 100 from now on so it makes sense that this is it more or less. I wonder how good encounters and the rest of the game's design could become if that was their primary or sole focus. To me, what I'm seeing feels like a really good time to put the jobs on the back burner and put all the budget into everything else. Still polish the jobs as they are, but I don't think it would be a problem at all to just keep them in this state. They just feel complete functionally.

There is a lot they can do without changing how they are currently function like what I described for black mage. For summoner as another example, they could make it so each demi summon has its own individual set of 3 eikons to go with it. Keep the flow of the rotation the same, but change up the power and aesthetic of the eikon phases.

You will always get new classes and actions, because those go on the box to sell the game. Button bloat is a secondary concern.

I would also say that the jobs are not complete. SMN is 25%. Healers more or less spam 1 nuke for huge parts of fights. Most jobs feel awful below levels 50, 60, or 70. Etc.

In a perfect world, there would be an expansion with no new classes or actions and intense polishing of existing jobs.

[HikariKurosawa]

Lots of negativity and discontent in this community, I can't really relate but it's interesting to see how everyone feels. Like I said before, if I am shutting down your ideas or not giving you consideration, it can't be helped. I just don't agree with what you're saying. Can't make something out of nothing.

Healer dps design is what it is for a reason, because they are healers. I don't understand why people want complex damage rotations or even interesting damage rotations on a healer. The whole point of it being so simple is because they only want us to be thinking of healing magic. Damage is literally filler on a healer and it should be as mindless as possible. It's already enough focus to just maintain a single dot for me personally. I'd rather get my healing kit even further developed, or get mobility spells than I would get any more damage. Looks like we're getting oGCD damage spells though so the people wanting for more damage won. It's just never going to be enough until you're doing something like a tank's rotation on top of having extremely overpowered healing spells that require zero thought and are all oGCD for some.

People who talk about how jobs are not being changed up significantly every expansion don't really understand how square enix has been approaching job design I guess. They want to build upon what they have already made, keep it the same but improved. There will likely rarely be significant reworks unless a job is completely broken like summoner was. Their goal is clearly to refine and polish what already is.

[MagiusNecros]

I'd prefer meaningful passive traits over skills if the skills amount to "another fireball, another dragon, another explosion, another oGCD heal". Jobs as a whole need to be restructured when it comes to playing in sub 50 content. Jobs are stunted when you play that content. It's so bad. They need to think about that instead of designing everything around level cap.

Really hope it isn't "your job all comes together at level 100" and "your job sucks to play at every level until you hit 96".

[Kaurhz]

Complete isn't the word I would use.

I would use the word rigid, and that is not a good thing.

[HikariKurosawa]

I'd prefer meaningful passive traits over skills if the skills amount to "another fireball, another dragon, another explosion, another oGCD heal". Jobs as a whole need to be restructured when it comes to playing in sub 50 content. Jobs are stunted when you play that content. It's so bad. They need to think about that instead of designing everything around level cap.

Really hope it isn't "your job all comes together at level 100" and "your job sucks to play at every level until you hit 96".

I agree, I think the changes coming in dawntrail are a perfect moment for them to step back from the top end of job design and really focus on the early game experience for once. They have a great finished product, but the buildup to it is lacking and roulettes or other forms of synched content are a huge part of the game experience even for someone who is fully leveled.

This on top of what I said about shifting the focus to encounter design would make the game much better than putting so many resources into further developing and rebalancing the top end of job design. Lots of work goes into it and they have to be really considerate about game balance. If they stepped away from that who knows what they could do with the rest of the game and the new jobs that are sure to be added.

Complete isn't the word I would use.

I would use the word rigid, and that is not a good thing.

It's not a good thing in your opinion and that's fine. For everyone who wants non-standard rotations and flexibility there are tons of others who prefer working toward mastery of a rigid rotation. There is a huge part of the community that is a really big fan of how well designed the rotations are and how much goes into mastering the patterns that exist. It all goes together sensibly and that's pretty cool.

[LianaThorne]

Like I said before, if I am shutting down your ideas or not giving you consideration, it can't be helped. I just don't agree with what you're saying. Can't make something out of nothing.

I'm sorry but it absolutely can be. You don't have to agree with anyone that you don't want to but you absolutely can respect others opinions without telling everyone to basically "deal with it" or resulting to borderline personal insults such as inferring people are crazy for thinking the way they do. That can be helped lol.

There are ways to have healthy debates and discussions and this isn't it. This is seeking an echo chamber.

[Zadood]

I agree, I think the changes coming in dawntrail are a perfect moment for them to step back from the top end of job design and really focus on the early game experience for once. They have a great finished product, but the buildup to it is lacking and roulettes or other forms of synched content are a huge part of the game experience even for someone who is fully leveled.

This on top of what I said about shifting the focus to encounter design would make the game much better than putting so many resources into further developing and rebalancing the top end of job design. Lots of work goes into it and they have to be really considerate about game balance. If they stepped away from that who knows what they could do with the rest of the game and the new jobs that are sure to be added.



It's not a good thing in your opinion and that's fine. For everyone who wants non-standard rotations and flexibility there are tons of others who prefer working toward mastery of a rigid rotation. There is a huge part of the community that is a really big fan of how well designed the rotations are and how much goes into mastering the patterns that exist. It all goes together sensibly and that's pretty cool.

Judging from your replies, are you a fellow FFXII enjoyer by any chances?

[HikariKurosawa]

Judging from your replies, are you a fellow FFXII enjoyer by any chances?

No I never played it past the very beginning. When it came out I was upset because it felt like the end of final fantasy JRPGs lol. I wanted menu based combat final fantasy like FFX and was pretty sad. FFX actually ended up being the last classic final fantasy too. FFXI was an mmo and I tried that too but didn't get beyond the intro either.

I'm sorry but it absolutely can be. You don't have to agree with anyone that you don't want to but you absolutely can respect others opinions without telling everyone to basically "deal with it" or resulting to borderline personal insults such as inferring people are crazy for thinking the way they do. That can be helped lol.

There are ways to have healthy debates and discussions and this isn't it. This is seeking an echo chamber.

You're free to express your own differing opinions but you can't really complain about me shutting them down as an individual. It's not my responsibility to give you validation when I feel you're posting invalid takes. There are plenty of other people who complain and echo your own takes. I'm not going to be one of them.

[MagiusNecros]

I agree, I think the changes coming in dawntrail are a perfect moment for them to step back from the top end of job design and really focus on the early game experience for once. They have a great finished product, but the buildup to it is lacking and roulettes or other forms of synched content are a huge part of the game experience even for someone who is fully leveled.

This on top of what I said about shifting the focus to encounter design would make the game much better than putting so many resources into further developing and rebalancing the top end of job design. Lots of work goes into it and they have to be really considerate about game balance. If they stepped away from that who knows what they could do with the rest of the game and the new jobs that are sure to be added.

Based on the info we have I don't think it's gonna happen Cap'n. Much like with the initial job reveals and the Picto/Viper demos they are sticking with the 2 minute meta and I'm not seeing much deviation from that. In addition to them making a series of role changes that further simplify combat as well as them saying they will focus on "Job Identity" in 8.0 when Identity has been an issue since Shadowbringers.

The whole "we hear you but aren't going to change anything for 3 years" just isn't a good answer.

But these are the devs that took 6 years to flip a switch on Living Dead so I don't have a lot of optimism on what they say.

I'm hoping we learn a little more when Media Tour ends.

I think players would be more agreeable if the devs were more transparent about combat encounters in the future(and please add midcore content/fights please) as well as where job design per each class is headed.

Communicating with your players is absolutely key in a MMO.

FFXIV took more risks during the HW/SB period. Starting with ShB things have been getting pretty bad with combat design.

I ran through the reworked Ascian Prime fight and it was just a Endwalker combat encounter reskin. More cinematic but less engaging. Seeing the same DPS check at the end of every new fight is a bit jarring.

I'm really hoping the writing for DT is better then EW. EW left a sour taste in my mouth.

But we will see.

[Valence]

In theory yes. The issue that will come up with that lane however is that people who are less good at the game will be gatekept out by the massive increase in incoming damage that going harrowing hell at all levels would introduce. Whatever solution we look at should also apply to normal mode content, otherwise it's not really a solution at all. I'm fairly confident I could handle a massive increase in incoming damage in casual content. I'm also fairly confident that a lot of healers cant.

I don't know, is this preventing the more casual playerbase to clear P10 normal?

Either way, I don't think all lanes are mutually exclusives.