Astrologian: what is your understanding about it?

[Aravell]

Honestly with the 1 button damage rotation healers have, you might be onto something. Let me dosis a little faster.

Surely the cards are the problem with AST's design and not at all the fact that the healer role in encounters has been minimized while having only one button to press.

Did I ever say the cards are the only problem with AST?

The only statement I made is that the current card system is an absolute bore and the DT system is worse.

But yes, tell me why other things being a problem means I can't criticise the card system.

[MascheRano]

Did I ever say the cards are the only problem with AST?

The only statement I made is that the current card system is an absolute bore and the DT system is worse.

But yes, tell me why other things being a problem means I can't criticise the card system.

The second part of my post wasn't directed toward you. I don't even disagree with the idea that the cards could be made better. Imagine if each card, on top of adding damage, could add another effect. Maybe some cards could proc something similar to Dancer's fan procs, or even be consumed like Royal Road to enhance the next card in different ways.

----

The issue is that True RNG actually feels bad, like Minor Arcana. It sounds good in practice, but the truth is that people don't want it. They think they do, but they don't, and that's why people are malding. The key is the illusion of RNG - controlled "RNG", if you will. AST is supposed to manipulate the future, if the gameplay could reflect turning an uncertain future (card RNG) into a desirable effect, it achieves the job fantasy.

[ASkellington]

As of right now, each card has a unique seal and priority combo:
a) whether or not the card is melee or ranged
b) the card's seal

I hard disagree. Its a binary option at best. There is no incentive to give the card to a weaker party member during their burst phase outside of the start. I'd argue that classes barely even HAVE one for ASTs to capitalize to even make this idea somewhat fun.

The seals again mean nothing. You ALWAYS get mp regen to the point where I often don't even need to press Lucid Dreaming. Its useful, but its not FUN nor interesting when I already have a button right there for it and healers in general don't have MP problems due to how they're currently designed. You can't even GIVE IT TO THE PARTY through ANYTHING. Synastry would have been nice with Astrodyne for me to give the mp refresh to my cohealer I just raised or my BLM.

Haste I'd also argue we get always because you on average get 2 seals (I've only been unlucky to get 3 of the same ONCE). Its w/e. I barely feel it. Again, useful but if USEFUL is all I'm getting out of a buff and not something fun or interactive with my kit why bother then?

And the less we talk about the stupid 6% damage tacked on the better.

I'd agree with liking the seals system outside of consistency if the seals ACTUALLY DID SOMETHING. If there were real choices involved:

Do I want 2 Suns for X buff? Or 2 Moons for Y or 2 Celestial for Z? You couldn't even trigger Astrodyne early to get the MP or Haste when you got 1 or two seals (which hey! there's a neat idea there, ain't it?)

There is none of that. There WAS NONE OF THAT. And I practically BEGGED for Astrodyne to BE that for Endwalker. And if we ever GOT THAT I'd have been more satisfied with it.

We never did and frankly I don't even want to ask for it. I gave them 2 expacs to make the seals system decent and worth being there. I genuinely do not want to give them another because in my opinion they don't DESERVE ANOTHER. That's what it SHOULD HAVE BEEN on its conception and it wasn't.

It was a garbage replacement of AoE Balance in Shb and a bland unwanted self buff in EW.

And I'm not sorry for being fed up and tired of hearing "this time we'll make it better". No. I want the CARDS to have the buff, not the seals system. I want the CARDS to be different, not the seals system. I want to have PvP AST in PvE and go back to a more Stormblood look for the class.

I understand that people want the consistency that 5.0/6.0 bring. And I also want to keep AST's apm, so long as people on controller are kept in mind. But I strongly feel there is a middle ground between 6 flavors of one card and what SB AST was. That is what I want and its not what 7.0 is.

[Aravell]

The second part of my post wasn't directed toward you. I don't even disagree with the idea that the cards could be made better. Imagine if each card, on top of adding damage, could add another effect. Maybe some cards could proc something similar to Dancer's fan procs, or even be consumed like Royal Road to enhance the next card in different ways.

----

The issue is that True RNG actually feels bad, like Minor Arcana. It sounds good in practice, but the truth is that people don't want it. They think they do, but they don't, and that's why people are malding. The key is the illusion of RNG - controlled "RNG", if you will. AST is supposed to manipulate the future, if the gameplay could reflect turning an uncertain future (card RNG) into a desirable effect, it achieves the job fantasy.

And that's why we've been asking for a more fleshed out card system. With tools like Royal Road, Spread, Sleeve Draw and other things to manipulate the RNG and also things like Time Dilation to extend the effects. That's why a lot of us liked HW/SB AST, we had all those tools and more which really achieved the fantasy of someone playing with fate.

While RNG could be better on some pulls back then, it's still way better than a tarot reader that only sees the same fate (you do more damage) for everyone that comes for a reading.

[MascheRano]

Sadly I haven't had the joy of raiding on AST in HW/StB, and I'd be interested in knowing more. How did the card system feel in Savage/Ultimate content where optimization mattered, and how would you compare it to current savage/ultimate?

[Aravell]

Sadly I haven't had the joy of raiding on AST in HW/StB, and I'd be interested in knowing more. How did the card system feel in Savage/Ultimate content where optimization mattered, and how would you compare it to current savage/ultimate?

My experience has mostly been for SB because I mained SCH in HW.

For regular clears, you'd Royal Road Spire on sight and occasionally Ewer and Bole if you can't find any immediate use for it. You could play enhanced/extended cards with not much issue as they never really balanced tightly for the buffs AST brings.

But if we're talking about speedruns or log runs, it's usually Sleeve Draw prepull and if it's not AoE Royal Road, you reset, then you wait for the AST to pull for Balance before starting.

It's also worth noting that cards back then had a 15s expiry and the CD only starts after you use the card, so you had to think quick back then or you lose time.

As for how it compares to current high-end content for me personally? I did optimisation runs when my old static asked me to help out, I already knew their rotations so my card usage was a very static order on every pull with the only adjustment being whether or not I drew a melee or ranged card. The most annoying part is probably the true RNG on Sleeve Draw, not getting a single Lord of Crowns for the entire 10 or so minutes does suck, I can't deny that. Also double Astrodyne sucked and I'm glad they removed that at least. Overall, there's a lot less thought going on in current AST for me, it's probably more thinking required in PF, but I don't pug often anymore so I don't know.

Edit: I'll note that I don't hate current AST, no. It's still my more played job when I want to heal, up there with SCH. I'm just disappointed that what I loved about it is partially gone.

[ASkellington]

I never played HW/SB AST and I kinda wish I got into the game earlier than when I did so I could. A friend who played during then actually got me into playing FFXIV at all based on selling me the class (as it was changing; yay me).

I gave Shb AST a shot thinking maybe it wouldn't be that bad. And while we can debate from here til kingdom come which version is worse, all of them have their problems.

SB AST imo fit the job's theme the best, seems as if it would be the most fun to play both casually and optiminally. Its major pitfall is that it has poor RNG mitigation, which, you could say is on theme for the class and I don't disagree, but if we can get things like Sleeve Draw or a way to manipulate the cards to some degree while keeping the diverse effects and some RNG why not go that route then?

Shb AST was just painful, and I'm not talking about the card changes either. I've ranted about how the seals system could've been good, but for what it was - Divination wasn't worth the work and they never buffed the damage so it ever could be. There was no point in having 6 cards. You could've literally either got rid of the Melee/Range split or the three seals and leave us with 3 or 2 cards respectively and I would barely notice the difference. I never had Ewer in my hands but I certainly felt the lack of it. Before the MP on card changes we were starving for it. Sleeve Draw I hated. Mostly because of the extra animations to turn a card into a Lord/Lady. Once they got rid of that it was infinitely more tolerable. I miss Nocturnal Sect. I don't care how inferior it was to Diurnal I liked the idea of having some skills be different while under either one (Intersection being a shield in Diurnal and Regen in Nocturnal for instance) and I loved the animation of that skill. Both abilities and Sleeve Draw rest in my AST class graveyard lovingly.

EW AST I saw the job action trailer and had some hope for the seals system to be better and they got immediately crushed when I saw what exactly Astrodyne did, no updates to other parts of AST kit to at least make that fun and with no changes to how raiding worked I pretty much said screw it, I'll go through content and play with friends but I wasn't gonna touch high end content until we got actual healing there. (I'm not gonna play classes I don't like just to pretend to have fun).

PvP AST is probably the closest AST has been to its SB counter part since 5.0. And I say that very loosely. You do get the same issues with the cards not exactly being what you want and when, but I don't mind it too much. In PvP the card choices... fit. So getting the "wrong one" isn't always an immediately bad choice. Arrow's movement speed is often useful because you can't always use your mount. Balance is Balance. Ewer is probably the least useful outside of a fight. (we used to have Bole too and I kinda miss it, but I also see why they removed it). I'm under no illusion that a direct copy of these is a good idea. But I DO think that with having played AST in PvP the dev team CAN make a card system that has differing effects that works. Its just hard to translate to PvE.

And as for 7.0 AST its a toss up honestly. I don't like the Sleight, I do like the differing effects. I would like it a bit better, I think, if the Sleight was Sleeve Draw we keep Draw and it allowed us to pick one of the 6 cards at random. But its not what I asked for, no. I am HOPING that "curative effects" can at least be a class theme MP regen (Old Ewer?) and isn't yet another stupid heal the class doesn't need (ffs). I don't even know if I'll play the class past the MSQ. Pictomancer is looking to be something I switch to.

We lost cards. We couldn't even get a Seals system to replace the cards. We lost Nocturnal. We couldn't even get a more interesting healing kit or something in place of heals we didn't need. And now when they finally say "AST you're being reworked" they couldn't even attempt to remake SB cards. Nope they just had to make w/e you want to call this new Draw.

I don't even expect the healing to get harder. Its just gonna be the same old song and dance.

[Kissune]

As DPS cards are now, the reactivity and decision making in my burst comes down to who I'm placing cards on and when. It's not always the same people at the same time, so don't ever imply that this DT system is 'what I wanted'. It's not. What I loved about shadowbringer's system was when the 2min meta didn't exist, and you needed to know each and every DPS jobs strength and weakness in its rotation, where it bursted, where it didn't. It was always a toss-up of trying to get the divination boost while also making sure you were getting the most use out of every single card. EW took away some of that, but I still felt like the job was enjoyable due to how you had to draw, recognize the card, quickly assess if you were redrawing it or not, and put it on the person who would best utilize it bc there were differences in when jobs bursted even IN two minute windows, whether they were front or backloaded or not. Black mages were also fun, bc the timing was heavily dependant on where they were in their rotation outside of 2min windows.

I never liked stormblood cards, because I never liked drawing a card that was just 'oh this sucks'. The balance was always a high feeling, especially with an aoe royal road, but everything else just felt so... meh to me? Like I don't get why people want unique effects so bad when the playstyle is just going to once again be 'keep fishing for the dps one' and all the others are just gonna feel like losing a game of chance. I want satisfying, reactive gameplay. I don't want a janky, broken mechanic that is up to the fates about whether I get to have fun or not. The bole is worthless. They can't put haste buffs in the game because people will lose their shit and rotations are too strict, and inflexible. If it was a permanent haste buff, maybe, but if it's RNG all you're doing is getting a random chance to fuck your teammates over.

I still don't know what they can do with seals or a way to preserve the 6 cards so they feel unique as damage dealers, maybe raw damage/crit/DH up similar to bard songs, or maybe playing a card with a specific seal gives aspects your malefic to do different effects. Ultimately, I just think the stormblood system was more frustrating than it was satisfying, bc even if you give it insane RNG manipulation to account for it, at that point what's the point of having RNG? If people are just gonna manipulate their way into getting the best card every time they might as well take this garbage ass DT rework. I'd rather all my cards do similar things that interact with the rest of my kit, or are specifically better with different classes. Am I going to give a crit buff to a samurai who has dancer partner in the 2min to synergize with devilment and their auto crits or would it be statistically better on monk? Now imagine you have less than 3s to think about it, and you get what I loved about EW/ShB AST.

I don't want effects that just do nothing. I don't want cards I'll just discard or overwrite 90% of the time for the small chance of a high at getting the perfect bole right before a raidwide. I want a fast and fluid card system that makes me have to think and react to what I draw, while simultaneously assessing where everyone is in their burst and who would benefit most. AoE balance to me is like pressing divination, I don't think about it. You say that 'if they're all damage cards why have them be different' but considering stormblood cards in current ff14 would be basically just minor arcana with worse odds of getting the card you actually want, I say what's the point of 'the balance, and 5 cards you want to burn to get the balance'?

I do think cards should have expiry timers, though. Holding a card for 60s is really boring. Also if anything, I'd rather just have a draw deck for dps cards and a seperate deck for healing cards with its own charges/CD, like a reworked minor arcana with different utility effects. Just bonuses that feel good to have and add on top of your static kit. I would have loved EW minor arcana if draw lady didn't mean not drawing lord. If I get a button that says 'get a random utility effect for free' I'm gonna like it because it means I need to actually think about where to use it WITHOUT the sting of A. Losing damage because of it and B. Not feeling like shit if I can't find a use for it. I'd also make seals into a purely beneficial thing for yourself that doesn't interact with DPS but has many flexible options to it. Once again something that you don't need to farm for, but it's nice to have.

[ASkellington]

I don't want effects that just do nothing. I don't want cards I'll just discard or overwrite 90% of the time for the small chance of a high at getting the perfect bole right before a raidwide. I want a fast and fluid card system that makes me have to think and react to what I draw, while simultaneously assessing where everyone is in their burst and who would benefit most. AoE balance to me is like pressing divination, I don't think about it. You say that 'if they're all damage cards why have them be different' but considering stormblood cards in current ff14 would be basically just minor arcana with worse odds of getting the card you actually want, I say what's the point of 'the balance, and 5 cards you want to burn to get the balance'?

Because Balance doesn't have to be a flat % increase anymore? That's what Divination is for? Why are you so fixated on getting SB cards back with 0 changes? Why are you under the assumption that Arrow, Spire and Spear also can't have worthy damage buffs along side Balance for 4 different kinds of damage while Bole and Ewer have a more defensive purpose? Differing effects does not mean that all cards have to be dead.

"Accessing where everyone is and who would benefit" really falls flat to be because its just damage and always has been. Does it matter if it gets placed on the right person at the right time? Not really. Does it feel good to do it? Because it barely feels like anything has been done, no. I don't feel helpful; I don't feel like I got anything out of it. That's the entire reason why I hate Shb/EW AST and don't want strictly damage buff cards - needless work for little gain and 0 fun.

[Kissune]

Because Balance doesn't have to be a flat % increase anymore? That's what Divination is for? Why are you so fixated on getting SB cards back with 0 changes? Why are you under the assumption that Arrow, Spire and Spear also can't have worthy damage buffs along side Balance for 4 different kinds of damage while Bole and Ewer have a more defensive purpose? Differing effects does not mean that all cards have to be dead.

The reason I don't want mixed util/damage cards is because drawing not damage will always feel worse especially with how bloated our healing kits are already. Why do I want more utility when what I have is more than sufficient for any situation anyways? 90% of my lady of crowns are thrown away even in ultimates. It's the single highest overheal ability I have, and it rarely ever is worth replacing anything bc I plan for every raidwide as if I drew 100% lords, which I have done. I pulled TOP over 1000 times, and I never lost a pull to not drawing lady, and I never saved a pull by drawing one. Which would mean that adding a mitigation and mp regen (which is the most useless card in the game like omfg it matters for exactly no one except being a dps gain on exactly dark knight and that's it).

Unless they trim our healing/mit toolkit to adjust for having a mit card or heal card in the mix, or balance fights around it means that AST has a chance to just kill the party through bad luck. And I'm sorry, but that isn't fun to me or anyone I'd be playing with.

The only way I'd be ok with util cards is if there was some kind of deck stacking method. Like, you draw one of 6 cards but if you play it, it's taken away from the pool until all 6 cards are drawn and played. I'd 100% be down with Stormblood cards wholesale if I had a way to manipulate the deck and card order to have the cards I want at the right time, both utility and damage. The DPS output would be consistent bc you could force a balance at every 2min (they'd need to make draw charges 20s each), but you'd also be able to make sure your mitigation is where it needs to be. You'd be manipulating cards on the fly, taking them in and out of your sleeve, and possibly even choosing one to burn to buff others royal road style. Bc the thing I hate most about mixed cards is drawing something I can't use bc stormblood cards are just EW minor arcana with a coat of paint. But if you had control over the RNG but it required effort and thought, I'd be ok with it.

Otherwise, I'd like perhaps two seperate decks. One could be crit/dh/flat% up with melee and ranged pairs, and the other could be a rework to minor arcana that pulls from a set of utility cards, which would make the decision making on who to put them on easier esp if one class uses crit/dh better or not. Bc if I get free utility that doesn't feel bad to not use or get over dps options, I'd be happier with it. If lady and lord (or some extra set) were purely bonuses and utility from mana regen to mit to a ms boost I'd like them much more, and I didn't have to rely on them but could use them freely without the bitterness of losing DPS over it. Bc ultimately utility cards can't be something you need to rely on, whether its for healing/mit/mp management bc if you draw bad you just get fucked and that's not fun. And if you *don't* get fucked then they feel useless. There's never been an in-between.
Because having different damage buffs alongside utility buffs mean the exact same thing. You either draw the damage, or you don't. Damage is always useful, utility cards aren't. I'd rather not draw a card I can't use, and if you add in RNG mitigation/healing I can't even use them for anything but just something else to throw on the pile of the already decided mit plan. They don't do anything, even when they're useful.

"Accessing where everyone is and who would benefit" really falls flat to be because its just damage and always has been. Does it matter if it gets placed on the right person at the right time? Not really. Does it feel good to do it? Because it barely feels like anything has been done, no. I don't feel helpful; I don't feel like I got anything out of it. That's the entire reason why I hate Shb/EW AST and don't want strictly damage buff cards - needless work for little gain and 0 fun.

The damage does matter, and it always matter. If you put the card on the wrong person at the wrong time, you lose DPS. It feels good and satisfying to get everything where it needs to me, and I'm sorry that we differ. Does it matter if you get the bole card right before the raidwide if you already had enough mit to survive it and you're gonna use the same buttons heal it up every time? If the bole is the difference between dying and not dying, then your group has a skill issue and you shouldn't have to get lucky to fix that. If it isn't the difference between dying and not dying, then what's the point of it?