SAM gaeshi change severely cripples rotational flexibility and ruins the job for me

[HikariKurosawa]

You mention From Soft games- it's not the simplicity, it's the flexibility that allows for dynamic encounters. This change reduces that flexiblity and thus constrains encounter design. If you rotation is set in stone, the encounter has to make that possible, and it makes difficulty changes hurt newer and less consistent players more.

That's one way to play the games, personally I don't cheese encounters by changing up my build but to each their own. It's like people who demand smn for ultimates. That's one way to do it. If you think the flexibility is what enables dynamic encounters in from software games I'm sorry but you're just not very good at the games.

The irony... Of players bashing " Hissatsu: Kaiten " for being restrictive? Only to use the same argument to promote restrictive Job design...

We can run into the issue of Dungeon Mobs dying upon casting Tenka Goken and us being stuck with Kaeshi Goken cause we casted Meikyo with the inflexibility to cast anything else until we hit the next mob pack? or of course worse case we encounter next boss and its a feels bad. Open-world encounters can also be worse like Fates/Eureka/Bozja where Mobs die by Tenka Goken and you're in a wasted Tsubame state for no Kaeshi: Goken. And were going to have assume Square takes this into account... Could say just don't use Meikyo now forehead, sure... or how about just don't make Samurai clunkier with unnecessary changes that doesn't tackle/fix anything. It doesn't even make the Job more difficult either, just more restrictive to solve nothing. Were arguing more for the benefit of accessibility for newer players or players new to Samurai...

Threads like these shows me that there players who don't wish to understand Samurai or adamantly happy in turning Samurai more face-roll then it is, without knowing to suggest how to do that? And the changes shows me that the Dev-Team has no Samurai main on it, mhm. There's also the Senei/Guren trait that we still have to see how that works, although it probably will boil down to casting Senei instead of a Shinten so we can finally not have our 1/5th of our gameplay be Shinten spam but... maybe 1/4th...

did you watch the job actions trailer? The samurai uses meikyo, uses higanbana, then uses tenka gouken and tsubame tenka gouken. The last iaijutsu you use overwrites the current tsubame. So unless you're mashing tsubame you're not going to waste it on an unwanted skill.

[Mogred]

did you watch the job actions trailer? The samurai uses meikyo, uses higanbana, then uses tenka gouken and tsubame tenka gouken. The last iaijutsu you use overwrites the current tsubame. So unless you're mashing tsubame you're not going to waste it on an unwanted skill.

Did you read the guys post? He didnt say anything about using the wrong version of tsubame. Our fear is that when we activate meikyo we are also going to get a buff called "Tsubame Ready" (similar to Ikishoten and Ogi) that lasts X amount of time. To use his example if we activate meikyo in a trash pack in a dungeon or overworld and we kill everything with the Iai cast we only have a short amount of time to get the next set of adds pulled before the buff expires which would effectively waste a Tsubame.

[HikariKurosawa]

Did you read the guys post? He didnt say anything about using the wrong version of tsubame. Our fear is that when we activate meikyo we are also going to get a buff called "Tsubame Ready" (similar to Ikishoten and Ogi) that lasts X amount of time. To use his example if we activate meikyo in a trash pack in a dungeon or overworld and we kill everything with the Iai cast we only have a short amount of time to get the next set of adds pulled before the buff expires which would effectively waste a Tsubame.

There are other jobs that already feature the same function and it is not based on a timer. Dragoon is a good example. I wouldn't worry too much about this "issue". The devs are better at their job than some forum doomer.

[HappyHubris]

Look at from software games, because that's exactly how all games work. You have input difficulty, and you have encounter difficulty. The two are constantly balanced in consideration of the level of challenge the devs feel is right. From software games essentially have three buttons, and two when you're actually good at the game. You use dodge, heal, and R1. You can use more buttons, but that's all that is needed and what the game is balanced around in the most difficult moments.
...
You think you know what you want, but you do not. But also, maybe a lot of you really do just want to mindlessly execute your complex rotations you made total muscle memory on training dummy bosses. This way you get to parse high and feel chill instead of actually engaging with difficult bosses. There are all types out there. I think the best type of player is one who wants standardized rotations and difficult engaging encounters though.

If you want to talk muscle memory, there are blindfolded Dark Souls boss clears. MMOs are a completely different genre that balance player input difficulty and encounter difficulty across a wider audience.

Worse, you're catering to a broad spectrum of players who are playing *simultaneously,* so it helps to give players a bit of an optional complexity slider through individual role design. This also helps give players different classes that play to different brain types: some people love a fixed input rotation, some enjoy managing procs, etc. With fewer flavors you'll find players get bored and wander off if their interests don't exactly match the single archtype.

[CelestiCer]

I see.

On a bright note, I noticed Shoha I in the trailer doing line cleaves, thank god. Shoha II on a separate button was a mistake.

Well... if were to assume what we see is a merged Shoha of the two. If it is? it made AoE slightly worse as it's a Line AoE similar to Guren with not much width, ya know considering how big the hitboxes of mobs are that push each-other away from clumping up. Then we lost quite a bit of AoE area. Combined with the possible Meikyo change towards not just Kaeshi: Setsugekka but also our AoE Kaeshi: Goken?... I am just face palming... Like I Like grinding mobs, its relaxing. But it is draining to know that it is made this stupid or this clunky. I hope to be proven wrong I really do. I hope I have not seen everything, mhm. Huffing that copium.

[Dysvalence]

That's one way to play the games, personally I don't cheese encounters by changing up my build but to each their own. It's like people who demand smn for ultimates. That's one way to do it. If you think the flexibility is what enables dynamic encounters in from software games I'm sorry but you're just not very good at the games.

By flexible I meant that you don't need to put things in a specific pattern. Imagine losing if you don't input a predetermined 64 step sequence with perfect order, timing, and positioning. Accidentally heavy instead of light on step 20? Move a little too far to the left at 32? Half a sec late on 25 because you healed? Doesn't matter if you survive completely unscathed, you're out of sync and will hit an enrage. If this sounds asinine that's because it is, and encounter design would have to be dumbed down and stripped of any dynamic variablity to make it work.

But sure we can roll with your definition too. You yourself state that Souls has more than one way to do things, i.e. the very definition of flexibility, and yet it has the dynamic and difficult encounters you claim to like. The two clearly aren't mutually exclusive.

Still, you're right, I'm not good at those games- the overwhelming majority of people aren't. The overwhelming majority of people who clear the game still aren't. Those that actually are is a tiny fraction of the playerbase and hardly enough to financially sustain the game. But by understanding the game well I can still play it, and since the game is flexible it still leaves room for skill expression for those who are good. This range of skill expression is necessary- it allows the devs to retain difficulty without making it too inaccessible or ping dependent. The devs have made it clear that accessibility is a priority, so if you actually want those hard, dynamic encounters like you claim you do, then flexibility is paramount.

[HikariKurosawa]

Well... if were to assume what we see is a merged Shoha of the two. If it is? it made AoE slightly worse as it's a Line AoE similar to Guren with not much width, ya know considering how big the hitboxes of mobs are that push each-other away from clumping up. Then we lost quite a bit of AoE area. Combined with the possible Meikyo change towards not just Kaeshi: Setsugekka but also our AoE Kaeshi: Goken?... I am just face palming... Like I Like grinding mobs, its relaxing. But it is draining to know that it is made this stupid or this clunky. I hope to be proven wrong I really do. I hope I have not seen everything, mhm. Huffing that copium.

There are several samurai that complained on the forums about making all aoe radial lowering the expression of skill lol. The devs simply can't win. I'd prefer if they went with conal or radial personally, but all radial is a little bit much. At least guren isn't alone as a line aoe anymore though. We have two conals tied to ogi, two linear, and a bunch of radials.

By flexible I meant that you don't need to put things in a specific pattern. Imagine losing if you don't input a predetermined 64 step sequence with perfect order, timing, and positioning. Accidentally heavy instead of light on step 20? Move a little too far to the left at 32? Half a sec late on 25 because you healed? Doesn't matter if you survive completely unscathed, you're out of sync and will hit an enrage. If this sounds asinine that's because it is, and encounter design would have to be dumbed down and stripped of any dynamic variablity to make it work.

But sure we can roll with your definition too. You yourself state that Souls has more than one way to do things, i.e. the very definition of flexibility, and yet it has the dynamic and difficult encounters you claim to like. The two clearly aren't mutually exclusive.

Still, you're right, I'm not good at those games- the overwhelming majority of people aren't. The overwhelming majority of people who clear the game still aren't. Those that actually are is a tiny fraction of the playerbase and hardly enough to financially sustain the game. But by understanding the game well I can still play it, and since the game is flexible it still leaves room for skill expression for those who are good. This range of skill expression is necessary- it allows the devs to retain difficulty without making it too inaccessible or ping dependent. The devs have made it clear that accessibility is a priority, so if you actually want those hard, dynamic encounters like you claim you do, then flexibility is paramount.

The only reason I brought up souls as an example was to clearly illustrate the balance between input complexity and encounter difficulty. I said in the very post that I didn't want ffxiv to go in that direction too far, just that it had gone too far in the other direction. This is clearly true when you look at how many people complain about how encounter difficulty has become too simple in ffxiv. This is only the case because it has to be in order for the ffxiv dev team to achieve their target level of balanced difficulty. In order to make encounters more complex, they had to simplify the input side of the balance.

If you want a more difficult game, as in equal or greater input complexity on top of more difficult and complex encounters... you're going to have to play a different company's game. They know what their target difficulty is here and this is it. The ratio of the balance can change, but this is as difficult as they want the game to be. If you read around, you'll see that the general consensus is people wanting more difficult encounters. So inputs have to be simplified to achieve that.

[Valence]

It's one of the things I absolutely hate with how they've been progressively homogenizing melee AoE shapes over time. Sorry not sorry. I liked actually dancing around during AoE trash pulls. It's not a thing on MNK anymore, and on SAM it's even more hilarious because the first combo step changes from conal to radial at lvl86... Like what the hell.

Fortunately SAM still has some of those remaining (lines AoEs), and RPR as well. I pray for them to stick around. Imagine if next it's all the DRG AoEs that get changed into circles...

[Samurai_Daisuki]

Hey guys!

I am a Japanese player. How are you doing?

I am not good at English so I use a translator.
Please forgive me if my writing is not correct.

What do you think of the “Tsubame-gaeshi”
specification change that will be implemented
in the Dawn Trail this time?

What do you think about the change of the specification of
“Tsubame-gaeshi” which is going to be implemented in the Dawn Trail?
I think it will make the rotation less flexible.

I would say that this specification is fatal.
I think it is an event that should be avoided at all costs!

For this reason, it is very important for all of you to have a heated discussion!
There is currently a discussion going on in the Japanese forum!
Most of the opinions are against the change!

How about you?
Please let me know what is going on in the English-speaking world!

If the time goes on like this, this fatal change will be implemented,
and we will have to wait and see what will happen.
The flaw will be left until 8.0.

Translated with DeepL.com (free version)

[HikariKurosawa]

Endgame raiding is heavily based around tightly aligning team cooldowns in large burst phases every 2 minutes. SAM's natural rotation doesn't align cleanly with this

I mean, if you look at what the changes accomplish, it's clear that this is what they wanted to achieve. Making SAM's natural rotation cleanly aligning with the 60/2 minute buff windows. It's a successful change. Rotational flexibility is stupid if only the 0.00001% of samurai are actually consistently lining up with the 2 minute buff windows. Just means the majority are not experiencing the level of power the devs want the samurai to express in encounters.

Elitist optimization and flexibility is vastly overrated. Express your elite level skills in the encounters if you are so good(you're not), leave rotations alone.