If you could, what order would you set tanks in terms of damage?

[rawker]

Hmm... i am willing to compromise with WARs. No changes will be done with their OP self sustain


BUUUUUUT


BW and NF will be limited by the charge system:

1. a maximum of 2 charges can be held at any given time.
2. gain 1 charge every 180s

Also, Equilibrium's cooldown will be increased to 120s

[Valence]

Healer design is shit, literally nobody denies that. That doesn’t mean that tanks should be self sufficient in casual content. DRK’s sustain should be the goal here not the weak link. Again this is independent of healer problems

If tanks want agency to survive independent of the healer that should come from active mitigation or channeled mitigation (ie skills like clemency or chenolian gate), if you want to survive outside of your healer you should have to lose damage for it. HS/HOC/BW are all problems because you are giving up nothing to receive a free heal, if they healed for nothing you would still press them because they are mitigation. And the healing of all of them is excessive, why is HOC better than excog, why does HS give that much regen considering you can stack charges, why does BW exist in any form.

Tank healing shouldn’t be free, it’s why I also oppose the level of free mitigation the DPS have. Shield healers have mitigation purview as it’s their entire job but like the healers who want limitless healing NOW they have to give up damage for it

Again this is entirely independent of how shit healers are in spite of this fact

I do agree with the feeling but even then if you can survive on your own without a healer even at the cost of your dps, you can still take 3 DPS with you and remove the healer, and it barely solves the problem.

( i'd still love to see things like chelonian and whatnot though, real tank actions with flavor )

[Marxam]

Passive healing (IE “additional effect”) is exactly what’s wrong with tank healing

Clemency is the best designed tank heal because if you want healing on a tank you should be forced to give up damage for it because healing isn’t the tanks purview

Ironic you think that because WAR used to be like that. Defiance was the only way to heal via IB and CC, in addition to the added convalescence effect of Defiance. Sure it had Bloodbath but that was a 90 sec cd vs. clemency (gcd). Equilibrium was also only a heal in Defiance and TP in Deliverance. So as I will always say, the removal of tank stances was one of the biggest downfalls to tank design after SB so now WAR always has access to healing and doesn't need to sacrifice damage to do it.

Passive healing was only broken this expansion because they kept buffing WAR heals for no reason. SiO and Equilibrium didn't need a regen but TBN also needs to not cost MP and double the duration for ease of use. Once that happens I'm sure people will start to see how strong TBN actually is when compared to passive healing. Idc how much healing you get, if you are hit for your Max HP and don't have a shield, you're already dead.

[Lyth]

The stance system also benefitted WAR more than any other tank, unsurprisingly, as there was no damage penalty for swapping stances, and because there were a number of actions including IB that ignored the damage penalty. In fact, in ARR, Defiance was part of your damage optimization because originally it had a Critical Hit buff, which lead to tanks using an Unchained opener.

In Stormblood, they tried to impose a gauge penalty on WAR stance dancing to bring it into line with the others. Unsurprisingly, there was pushback against this, which fed into the modern unga bunga design post-4.2.

Mitigation is not comparable to healing. A tank with access mitigation only cannot sustain themselves indefinitely. They'll eventually die due to attrition.

[Supersnow845]

I feel like you're mad at tanks, for a healer design issue, Theirs literally nothing wrong with Gunbreakers level of Self Sustain, Paladin's self sustain being tied mainly to magic attacks can just be removed and the Job would honestly be pretty good sustain wise, This leaves Warrior as A problem child.

HS/HOC/BW are all limited resource heals, the Goal should be that the sustain is Balanced out that it doesn't take away the healers job but it should Aid the healer in a sense that you're both working together to keep yourself alive. Which again even blood whetting can be balanced out if we reduced the potency and removed the per enemy heal effect.

Tank healing can be free, the issue is Tank healing isn't designed around being free in the current game because of how 1. predictable damage is 2. How little auto attacks are 3. Inbuilt non-cd mitigation values are likely too high.

I think you keep looking at healer design to make up a excuse why tanks can't have some form of sustain, Resource based Sustain on tanks is workable but the issue is that nothing really accounts for that built in sustain.

Mitigation is also a key player in way healers feel awful to play, because i don't even need to heal a DRK in AOE, heck I'm pretty sure i can solo things on Dark without a healer if I was trying, Mitigation values are very strong coupled with strong healing values ect.

I think people overblow sustain as a issue a bit much nowadays because of the funny heal axe tank, But it's a larger issue then lets just remove sustain and make tanks even more stale and boring to play.

Mind you I'm never against reducing sustain values I think that's a good thing to do, I'm just not in favour of making it so every tank has the same sustain value as DRK, because I know its not just a sustain issue.

Except I’m not even looking a healers, I’m looking at the fact that as a tank healing shouldn’t be incidental and free based on a button you are already going to press, tank healing should either cost or in the worst case scenario be free in very certain circumstances

It’s got nothing to do with healers that it’s unbalanced to receive heals for pressing buttons that you were already going to press anyway because they are good sources of mitigation, sure you could “balance” this by making the heals so weak as to be functionally nothing in the grand scheme of things but it still doesn’t really change the issue

[Rithy255]

Except I’m not even looking a healers, I’m looking at the fact that as a tank healing shouldn’t be incidental and free based on a button you are already going to press, tank healing should either cost or in the worst case scenario be free in very certain circumstances

It’s got nothing to do with healers that it’s unbalanced to receive heals for pressing buttons that you were already going to press anyway because they are good sources of mitigation, sure you could “balance” this by making the heals so weak as to be functionally nothing in the grand scheme of things but it still doesn’t really change the issue

The issue of what? healing being a additional effect. I guess we got to remove Kerachole's regen effect because we can only have a button function as one thing. This argument makes no sense other then "I don't like tank healing so it should be deleted". Having sustain tied to mitigation tools isn't a issue.

You're implying that any sort of decent self healing cannot be balanced properly on tanks other then if it was super weak, Which is plainly false. I'm not defending the upper end of tank sustain here, but I feel as if you're just looking at tanks and don't want them to have any sort of healing because it takes away from healers gameplay. (Which I disagree I think healer gameplay is a massive design issue and has hardly anything to do with tanks having sustain like GNB).

It's really not a one way or the other issue Tanks can have good sustain, while healers can have healing kits that are functionally useful and cannot be replaced, I think what would be important like I've said before is that it's both the Healer and the Tanks responsibility to Support the party, I love that tanks are a hybrid between Healer/Dps and have a lot they can do to save party members, but understanding that it needs to be leveled out in a way that healers don't feel useless.

I just feel like removing sustain, target shielding/healing, would be the wrong move, it will end up making tank feel pretty boring to play... I mean well even more boring to play.

At the end of the day all I'm saying is removing sustain isn't just a solution towards "fixing" tank, Mitigations also having some self healing effect Isn't a bad thing, unless we want to argue all abilities should have one function and one function only. I also hope sustain gets toned down, War mostly but PLD a bit too, I don't see sustain as a massive reason why healer's are so bad just tanks like Warrior amplify it and become a easy thing to point at for a lot of people, theirs been so many takes that "removing healing from tanks" is actually going to make healers balanced. (Spoiler its not).

[Supersnow845]

snip

I’m perfectly happy to remove the regen on kerachole just so we are clear but that’s not the point

Why; on a tank; does the additional free effect of a mitigation you were already going to press; need to be a heal. Why not have it proc say more mitigation or a utility that allows the tank to be a better tank

You are getting caught up on the fact that you believe I’m simply asking for tank healing to be deleted with nothing as compensation as a misguided attempt to rebalance healers when really I want tank healing changed to something else that strengthens the tank fantasy of actually tanking

Let’s use a simple example, say when you press bloodwhetting right now you get about 1300 potency of healing in healer potency, why not instead of getting a shield and 4 hits of healing potency if you can time bloodwhetting that you get hit 4 times during its duration it procs an extra 20 seconds of 15% mitigation, or PLD’s holy Shelton could proc a CD reduction on bulwark, sharing your mitigation correctly could proc a more powerful effect, like if you use intervention and you both get hit that could halve bulwark’s CD while using HS on yourself only reduces it by 10 seconds or so. You could also proc extra charges of say non potency gap closers or empower ranged attacks. Things that actually play into the tank fantasy

So you are using your short CD’s to actually tank and make your future self more tanky as well. Then going into the complaint of “I don’t want to be at the mercy of a crap healer when I tank” that’s when you bring in skills like clemency or chenolian gate. Skills used when you have the skill to realise your healer is bad and you use to attempt to keep the run going beyond just letting everyone else die because you have no other choice. Right now below 82 I get frustrated on tanks because I also hate being totally at the mercy of the competency of the healer, but invalidating the healer with self heals isn’t the answer either. If I can hold onto the pull for an extra 10 seconds channeling chenolian gate as a last ditch desperate attempt to hold on so the DPS can end the pull that sounds a lot more akin to the tank fantasy than “healer, what healer I’m the healer”

Again none of this has a single shred of relevance to the 010306919601692968296010692 issues that healers have, this is my experience with the tank fantasy

[rawker]

I guess we got to remove Kerachole's regen effect because we can only have a button function as one thing.

Don't forget the regen from Sacred Soil. It's an additional effect we didn't expect nor asked for.

As for PLD's sustain, just remove all passive healing from their offensive spells, Holy Sheltron and Intervention, give Convalescence effect to Holy Sheltron, then finally, add a trait to Clemency to heal more the lower the target's HP is. I didn't add Divine Veil as the potency isn't that much plus it is not spammable.

That way, PLDs who solo will have to force themselves to drop dpsing to sustain themselves while giving actual healers an easier time topping them off with the Convalescence effect.

[Vallerie]

but TBN also needs to not cost MP and double the duration for ease of use. Once that happens I'm sure people will start to see how strong TBN actually is when compared to passive healing.

No, TBN needs to stay exactly where it is in terms of cost, it's the only actually somewhat well designed mitigation. And tbh, other tank mits should have similar job appropriate measures implemented, where you need to actually think about how you're using your short mit instead of just slapping it on whenever.

[Oizen]

If I were to "fix" TBN, I'd rather change its breaking conditions than its MP cost. Its MP cost is important as its what allows you to prevent overcapping in the opener, and it lets you spend MP while still holding onto the Dark Arts stack to bring into a burst window.
I also dont want to live in a world where TBN has no cost and its a damage loss to not stand in every aoe and break it every 15 seconds, nor do I want it to just be 15s thrill of battle.

If they want to make TBN more applicable in all content, which is something I feel like is a bigger issue with the skill, there is a plethora of content in this game where it just doesn't work especially with gear.
They could just make it so you get the stack upon half the shield being used, or just at the end of the duration regardless. But for the love of god do not remove that 3k MP cost.