If you could, what order would you set tanks in terms of damage?

[Supersnow845]

Passive healing (IE “additional effect”) is exactly what’s wrong with tank healing

Clemency is the best designed tank heal because if you want healing on a tank you should be forced to give up damage for it because healing isn’t the tanks purview

[rawker]

Not sure why they removed Convalescence from PLD. As if WAR needed more self-healing. I miss having access to traited 30% Convalescence.

[Valence]

Tanks shouldn't be healers. At best give them clemencies with their own flavor and a much sharper MP cost like clemency used to be...

Perhaps they could focus on block (PLD), perhaps some could focus on HP and healing manipulation like Conva/Thrill (WAR), perhaps they can focus on shields (DRK), or perhaps on parry translating into direct counters like pvp Nebula (GNB). Perhaps their short identity cooldowns could actually be extremely strong on those departments, but not on healing. With a decent balance, there is little need to make one stronger than another on damage...

[GoatOfWar]

Not sure why they removed Convalescence from PLD. As if WAR needed more self-healing. I miss having access to traited 30% Convalescence.

Warrior has a track record of cannibalising other tank abilities and job identities.
It's genuinely the worst designed tank of them all. But that's largely because of Warrior's playerbase.

[HappyHubris]

The tank I play should obviously be the top DPS.

Joking aside, all tanks should have roughly equal viability, with differences expressed in feel/rotations.

[rawker]

But the equal viability they envisioned turned into the hot mess we have at the moment where the only thing that separates a tank from the others are an absurd enmity modifier to their kit and mitigation that one more round of homogenization will turn into the same ability.. I fear the day when all tank invulns, 30% mits will share the same fate ad GLA's Rampart.

[Rithy255]

Passive healing (IE “additional effect”) is exactly what’s wrong with tank healing

Clemency is the best designed tank heal because if you want healing on a tank you should be forced to give up damage for it because healing isn’t the tanks purview

Healing isn't a tanks purview? Then healers shouldn't have mitigation and DPS because it's not their purview. (This is weak logic, as role(s) esp support like tanks should be able to dive more into utility) Honestly It feels like people who just want to entirely remove tank sustain don't even know the issue in the first place, It's not just some tanks having funny self healing it's the full design of healers as a whole, combined with tank design not accounting for how badly healers are designed.

Theirs nothing wrong with sustain, it's the excessiveness of that said sustain, Holy Sheltron on it's own wouldn't be overbearing Its the fact it's ontop of PLD's magic healing kit.
Gunbreaker has a fairly Balanced sustain kit.

Warrior is a example where yes the sustain has gone too far, Besides it making zero sense that warrior is a party group healer tank, the fact is it's sustain in AOE is absurd, it has too much sustain tools for far little down sides.

Even if we removed every tank expect for Dark Knight would healing be that much better? Of course not The issue is way deeper then some self sustain on tanks, which can all be fairly balanced with healer design instead of "lets take more from tanks so healers feel slightly better". When the issue is the design of healers, tanks and fight design, Simply removing Sustain from tanks doesn't fix that at all.

I do think yeah tanks can be toned down in current design (warrior mostly), but It's not going to suddenly be a fix for healer design, tank sustain wouldn't be a issue if fight design actually accounted for some form of sustain

[Supersnow845]

Healing isn't a tanks purview? Then healers shouldn't have mitigation and DPS because it's not their purview. (This is weak logic, as role(s) esp support like tanks should be able to dive more into utility) Honestly It feels like people who just want to entirely remove tank sustain don't even know the issue in the first place, It's not just some tanks having funny self healing it's the full design of healers as a whole, combined with tank design not accounting for how badly healers are designed.

Theirs nothing wrong with sustain, it's the excessiveness of that said sustain, Holy Sheltron on it's own wouldn't be overbearing Its the fact it's ontop of PLD's magic healing kit.
Gunbreaker has a fairly Balanced sustain kit.

Warrior is a example where yes the sustain has gone too far, Besides it making zero sense that warrior is a party group healer tank, the fact is it's sustain in AOE is absurd, it has too much sustain tools for far little down sides.

Even if we removed every tank expect for Dark Knight would healing be that much better? Of course not The issue is way deeper then some self sustain on tanks, which can all be fairly balanced with healer design instead of "lets take more from tanks so healers feel slightly better". When the issue is the design of healers, tanks and fight design, Simply removing Sustain from tanks doesn't fix that at all.

I do think yeah tanks can be toned down in current design (warrior mostly), but It's not going to suddenly be a fix for healer design, tank sustain wouldn't be a issue if fight design actually accounted for some form of sustain

Healer design is shit, literally nobody denies that. That doesn’t mean that tanks should be self sufficient in casual content. DRK’s sustain should be the goal here not the weak link. Again this is independent of healer problems

If tanks want agency to survive independent of the healer that should come from active mitigation or channeled mitigation (ie skills like clemency or chenolian gate), if you want to survive outside of your healer you should have to lose damage for it. HS/HOC/BW are all problems because you are giving up nothing to receive a free heal, if they healed for nothing you would still press them because they are mitigation. And the healing of all of them is excessive, why is HOC better than excog, why does HS give that much regen considering you can stack charges, why does BW exist in any form.

Tank healing shouldn’t be free, it’s why I also oppose the level of free mitigation the DPS have. Shield healers have mitigation purview as it’s their entire job but like the healers who want limitless healing NOW they have to give up damage for it

Again this is entirely independent of how shit healers are in spite of this fact

[Lyth]

I think the correct answer is somewhere in the middle.

Tanks finding ways to solo difficult content or keep themselves alive without a healer has been around for a long time. It leads to creative ventures like this one. But for it to be meaningful, there needs to be some degree of difficulty to it. The current design is really quite boring because there's no threat of failure. That doesn't mean that self-sustain shouldn't exist on tanks, but rather that it needs to be executed better.

Every action should be damage neutral under at least some conditions. Otherwise the optimum way to play becomes not using some of your buttons. I think this is part of the reason why support gameplay falls flat. You take a job that already has a limited rotation due to the fact that half of the buttons are defensive actions, and then you punish the player for using those defensive actions in the first place. Rather than playing a job designed with 25-30 actions, you end up playing one with 10. You actually need to reverse that philosophy and reward players for mitigating and healing effectively, such that damage optimization benefits from how effectively you time your support functions. Counter attacks are a great way of doing that, and don't necessarily need to be limited to the active tank.

Either way, this is not a turf war, and even if you made it such that tanks cannot heal, players will still be frustrated with the design of healers. Likewise, you can make healers fun to play even in the presence of tanks with self-sustain. The problem is a lot more fundamental than that.

[Rithy255]

Snip

I feel like you're mad at tanks, for a healer design issue, Theirs literally nothing wrong with Gunbreakers level of Self Sustain, Paladin's self sustain being tied mainly to magic attacks can just be removed and the Job would honestly be pretty good sustain wise, This leaves Warrior as A problem child.

HS/HOC/BW are all limited resource heals, the Goal should be that the sustain is Balanced out that it doesn't take away the healers job but it should Aid the healer in a sense that you're both working together to keep yourself alive. Which again even blood whetting can be balanced out if we reduced the potency and removed the per enemy heal effect.

Tank healing can be free, the issue is Tank healing isn't designed around being free in the current game because of how 1. predictable damage is 2. How little auto attacks are 3. Inbuilt non-cd mitigation values are likely too high.

I think you keep looking at healer design to make up a excuse why tanks can't have some form of sustain, Resource based Sustain on tanks is workable but the issue is that nothing really accounts for that built in sustain.

Mitigation is also a key player in way healers feel awful to play, because i don't even need to heal a DRK in AOE, heck I'm pretty sure i can solo things on Dark without a healer if I was trying, Mitigation values are very strong coupled with strong healing values ect.

I think people overblow sustain as a issue a bit much nowadays because of the funny heal axe tank, But it's a larger issue then lets just remove sustain and make tanks even more stale and boring to play.

Mind you I'm never against reducing sustain values I think that's a good thing to do, I'm just not in favour of making it so every tank has the same sustain value as DRK, because I know its not just a sustain issue.