Feelings on FF14's Trinity System?

[Zairava]

Yeah man, I can't believe healers are saying their gripes with the trinity currently when they've been screaming feedback into the endless void since the beginning of Shadowbringers only to see them double down on it and give tanks more (especially warrior) more party healing than they should ever have, making the issue even worse in a thread where the trinity is the main topic. /s

[Supersnow845]

I wonder why the third of the trinity that the developers are actively open in their dislike of and as a result has the least interesting design; the most amount of its responsibility given to other roles and the least skill expression is the most common complaint in a “how do we feel about the trinity thread”

Must be those pesky “everything has to be about healers and nothing else” forum posters

[Rithy255]

Well to be honest, Aggro and emnity has never been a good system in this game, and its basically never been the Tank's responsibility.
Even in the rose tinted glasses area of tanking, you'd maybe press the enmity combo once, turn off defense stance and only be in dps stance the rest of the fight unless some job specific mechanic made you get out of it.

Hell I'm pretty sure it ended up being Ninja's job to handle enmity.

I feel like this is the issue though, It was never properly tried because DPS for some reason had a lot of aggro management systems in place (ninja) so it became less of a tanking jobs focus, Also the fact is tanky stances weren't really required as a main tank their became No reason to use your defensive stance.

I feel as if, You 1. Made tank stances more important, aka you could tie mitigation to it and the inbuilt defensive value is strong without it you're just a melee DPS defensive wise ect. 2. Add gameplay rotational differences based on what stances are active, In a DPS stance dark knight for example could have a haste buff, PLD could unlock stronger "sword oath" attacks that change up your combo paths ect ect. I feel as this is all actually fairly balanceable just the effort required would never be put in, because trying to make tanks and healers interesting and feel fun and unique isn't a priority.

Not to say omg tanks have to have aggro management but Surely they could at least make tanks more fun to play, but in reality tanks have been getting dummed down rotationally despite aggro management being took away, boss movement has become less Important the issue isn't that aggro management was removed, I'm fine with that but nothing was there to replace it... Which is the core of the issue Tank design is so boring, flat plain and so safe.

I feel like SE is too afraid to make support kits interesting because the idea of one job being left behind holds back interesting design to the point where having different and unique jobs makes no sense because everything plays the same. This hurts support jobs the most as at least DPS can have interesting rotational differences, while tanks and healers are designed to have the most uninspired boring rotations imaginable because of the trend of trying to make the jobs easy to play while also making their kits so similar.

[Niroken]

...they've been screaming feedback into the endless void since the beginning of Shadowbringers only to see them double down on it and give tanks more (especially warrior) more party healing than they should ever have, making the issue even worse in a thread where the trinity is the main topic. /s

Probably because the screaming isn't in Japanese. Also they didn't give tanks just party healing, the entirety of Endwalker was also damage potency buffs.

[ty_taurus]

This is now a healer thread

It's almost like in a discussion about the role trinity, the role in the worst state inevitably comes up.

[Jojoya]

For the Trinity to work, each role needs to require both of the other roles to be present to clear content.

As it stands right now, tanks do not need the other roles to be present in Normal content. They have sufficient self-healing and mitigation so they don't need healers unless there's a Doom to be cleansed. They don't need DPS because normal content rarely includes a tight DPS check outside of the 8 man trials (and you can probably clear those with 8 tanks).

Healers only need one of the two other roles present. Tanks to hold enmity so they can focus on damage (weak as it is) or DPS to hold enmity so they can focus on healing.

DPS only need one of the other two roles present. Like healers, they need tanks to hold enmity so they can damage. Or they need healers to keep them alive as they both hold enmity and damage. If the vast majority of damage in an encounter is avoidable, they don't need either.

Tank design is the major broken link because it so rarely needs either of the other roles outside of high-end duties. The game is at the point where everyone might as well play a tank because there is so very little that a tank can't handle outside of Doom.

It's on SE to decide they want to bring the Trinity back into "balance" by making each role require the other two in group content.

Without the trinity fights would have to change. Either every job can take any hit from the boss, or all big hits are avoidable. Tankbuster could no longer be a thing.

DPS are already able to take tank busters in just about any content outside of EX/Savage/Ultimate.

Give their gear the Defense and Magic Defense Ratings on tank gear and an alert healer, and they could probably take some of the higher end tank busters that don't require an invuln as well.

[Rithy255]

Snip

Tank will generally need DPS in all serious content due to the fact checks do actually exist, obviously as time carries on and tanks start doing DPS numbers with better gear then yeah 8 tank parties can generally do DPS checks fine... This is very dependent.

In normal duties I'm pretty sure you can just bring whatever, DPS will likely need a healer or tank but I'm sure you could do it with like a red mage or two if you dont aoe pull (don't know why you would want to do that) and a bunch of trial and error if you really wanted to, Healers don't need DPS for normal content even they can usually beat the DPS checks that normal content Rarely provides usually, they don't need tanks, I've even done like a few runs with all healers for the memes it's possible there, maybe not every duty but I know that its possible in 90 some dungeon content.

I Don't see how tank is a broken link, The design for tanks sure is bad, warrior is a key example but I feel as if any job can clear normal content with any comp as long as they have one consistent healing source even if it's suboptimal, The main issue is actually Bringing a healer isn't usually optimal in late game normal duty situations because the game doesn't really account for the tanks resources much and warrior's AOE healing cannot really be balanced it will always be the best AOE healing skill... on a Tank.

Personally I think it's more of a issue with how hand holdy normal content is that bringing any job doesn't really matter, but normal content needs to be hand holdy to a extent but just not at the rate it is. elephant in the room being Warrior which yeah I'm not going to defend warrior's design it's really bad and unhealthy to teach healers that they can just go afk because they got the funny axe healer tank.

[Truen]

I like the trinity. However, I think the problem is in an effort to keep this narrow there's been way too much homogonization and jobs feel rather samey in the healer space. Back when Astros were buffing healers /w a blend of dots and DD, White mages were big healers /w strong DDs, and Scholars were dotting, shield casting healers with some DDs and heals the game was both interesting and fun! Now, what they've created is a shadow of what we once had and it's not improving.

[Eraden]

Mao thinkings would be good to has DPS need manage thems aggros more often and maybe also make tanks need to work bits harder to keeps aggro off DPS and Healers. Rights now Mao can go "balls-to-the-walls" as BLMs and never need worries. Mao thinkings this makes Mao job maybe little bits too easy. Buts with this change everyones would also need to has ways to track aggro betters and fights might need be adjusted for this. DPS checks would still be needed for hard fights but in some cases mights need be toned down little bits.

[Boblawblah]

It's almost like in a discussion about the role trinity, the role in the worst state inevitably comes up.

touche.

back on topic, Mao got me thinking,

I do remember an mmo (can't remember the name, maybe Warhammer Online?) where if you heal spammed, you would quickly take all the aggro no matter what your tank or dps did. Tanks served the same role, but DPS and healers both had to be a bit careful not to go overboard with their healing/dps or they would find themselves the target.

I'm not sure how that would work in FFXIV, we've done it this way for so long that people would be unhappy if you suddenly changed how they needed to play in a fundamental way.

Personally I like how ffxiv doesn't enforce an absolute strict trinity, with how often you're meant to be doing roulettes and group content. Most players still very much need the trinity in most content, and runs suffer if one of the roles is lacking severely and/or missing, which imo is how it should be.