Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[GoatOfWar]

I mean you are totally missing the fact that

1) we want more complex DPS
2) we have to rely on the party

Based on the way main and mend works and how tank mastery works every time we have to drop a cast that’s equivalent to a tank losing a 700 potency attack (so let’s use goring blade) every time your healer is GCD healing they have lost a goring blade. You also have to remember healers are casters and have arguably the worst worst movement tools of the casters, your uptime is not a consideration at all and your mitigation doesn’t affect your damage

Healer DPS should be more complex but it 100% should exceed tank DPS because healer DPS is a reflection of the party, tank DPS is just a reflection of how well 1 person can play a slightly easier melee rotation

Not a single MMO i've played made healers outdps the tanks under any circumstance, let alone one where the healing checks are so minimal in FF.
It doesn't really matter how you try to contextualise it. For me it's a hard no. And if it ever does happen, i'll just play dps instead. Because it would be stupid.
Healer dps rotations are and will always be simple. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever to let them do higher dps.
I get that tanks are OP and need nerfs but let's not overreach on the demands. If you genuinely think they should, then we're done talking.
If it happens, i won't be the one tanking for you anymore.

Besides, this would a one way ticket to a PLD/WAR meta where GNB and DRK will not be viable.

[Nizzi]

actually astounding that tank mains can somehow wave away the exact situation we literally had last expac and claim that should never be allowed to happen, lmfao

[Supersnow845]

Not a single MMO i've played made healers outdps the tanks under any circumstance, let alone one where the healing checks are so minimal in FF.
It doesn't really matter how you try to contextualise it. For me it's a hard no. And if it ever does happen, i'll just play dps instead. Because it would be stupid.
Healer dps rotations are and will always be simple. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever to let them do higher dps.
I get that tanks are OP and need nerfs but let's not overreach on the demands. If you genuinely think they should, then we're done talking.
If it happens, i won't be the one tanking for you anymore.

Besides, this would a one way ticket to a PLD/WAR meta where GNB and DRK will not be viable.

I mean I’m not saying anything about you specifically, these are my thoughts, if they are so egregious to you than that’s fine, you’ll get everything you want as a tank main anyway

[GoatOfWar]

I mean I’m not saying anything about you specifically, these are my thoughts, if they are so egregious to you than that’s fine, you’ll get everything you want as a tank main anyway

I appreciate that we can disagree.
But you should know my stance on tanks now, i think tanks should be brought down.
I don't want Drk buffs.

[ty_taurus]

Not a single MMO i've played made healers outdps the tanks under any circumstance, let alone one where the healing checks are so minimal in FF.
It doesn't really matter how you try to contextualise it. For me it's a hard no. And if it ever does happen, i'll just play dps instead. Because it would be stupid.
Healer dps rotations are and will always be simple. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever to let them do higher dps.
I get that tanks are OP and need nerfs but let's not overreach on the demands. If you genuinely think they should, then we're done talking.
If it happens, i won't be the one tanking for you anymore.

Besides, this would a one way ticket to a PLD/WAR meta where GNB and DRK will not be viable.

Couldn't you say the same about tanks though? Tanks also aren't DPS, so I could use the exact same logic to say "it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to let them do higher DPS than healers. If they did, I'd just play DPS instead."

Consider that dealing damage is more synergistic with a healer's goals than a tank's. A tank's goal is to endure, regardless of how long that takes. Survive until the party can win. A healer's goal is to heal and prevent damage as much as possible, and there's no better prevention of damage than the enemy being KOed, because that's a 100% damage mitigation.

"But aggro!" Except aggro doesn't need high damage to be generated because of tank stance. And even if tanking wasn't so mindlessly simple, aggro isn't inherently associated with high damage. High healing actually generates more aggro than damage generally, and that's not to say you can't have effects that generate aggro without doing damage at all. Flash says hi.

[GoatOfWar]

Couldn't you say the same about tanks though? Tanks also aren't DPS, so I could use the exact same logic to say "it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to let them do higher DPS than healers. If they did, I'd just play DPS instead."

Consider that dealing damage is more synergistic with a healer's goals than a tank's. A tank's goal is to endure, regardless of how long that takes. Survive until the party can win. A healer's goal is to heal and prevent damage as much as possible, and there's no better prevention of damage than the enemy being KOed, because that's a 100% damage mitigation.

"But aggro!" Except aggro doesn't need high damage to be generated because of tank stance. And even if tanking wasn't so mindlessly simple, aggro isn't inherently associated with high damage. High healing actually generates more aggro than damage generally, and that's not to say you can't have effects that generate aggro without doing damage at all. Flash says hi.

If you're going to start making healer dps more important or equally as important as your tank damage, then you're restricting your viable tank choices to whichever can reduce and heal damage the most.
Gnb and Drk wouldn't be viable if you had to think of your healer damage in your choice of tanks. You'd default into PLD and War unless they all became identical. It would leave even less design space.
Because then, the goal becomes minimising the need for a healer for maximum gains. And the incoming damage is already low. But it doesn't end there, i'd reckon a lot of people (Myself included) would no longer feel motivated to play tank. Think about it, why play something with an engaging dps rotation when you'll be outdone by someone mashing 1111111111111111111111111111111 with their forehead from range.
I line everthing up for a burst window and make sure no cooldowns and resources go wasted, they roll their forehead over their 1 button.
At that point i'll just switch over to a dps job, because i think that's kind of insulting to my efforts.

I'd quit tanking the same day they'd push this into the game.
Frankly, i think healer dps is already too close to tank dps.

[ty_taurus]

If you're going to start making healer dps more important or equally as important as your tank damage, then you're restricting your viable tank choices to whichever can reduce and heal damage the most.

I've been playing this game since ARR launched in 2013, and I've been around the forums since basically the very beginning. I don't think I've ever seen such an absurd claim. I don't even know what to say because absolutely nothing about this makes an ounce of sense. "If healers did more damage than tanks, then tank viability would be determined by how well they heal?" Are you kidding me?

Because then, the goal becomes minimising the need for a healer for maximum gains. And the incoming damage is already low. But it doesn't end there, i'd reckon a lot of people (Myself included) would no longer feel motivated to play tank. Think about it, why play something with an engaging dps rotation when you'll be outdone by someone mashing 1111111111111111111111111111111 with their forehead from range.

As if asking for healer DPS to not be just facerolling 1111111 till our fingers grow numb from frostbite and fall off isn't something that we've been doing for literally 5 years now?

But it doesn't end there, i'd reckon a lot of people (Myself included) would no longer feel motivated to play tank.

You mean like how a lot of people (myself included) have not felt motivated to play healer, or even the game itself for years because healers are weak and have stupidly boring DPS?

[GoatOfWar]

I've been playing this game since ARR launched in 2013, and I've been around the forums since basically the very beginning. I don't think I've ever seen such an absurd claim. I don't even know what to say because absolutely nothing about this makes an ounce of sense. "If healers did more damage than tanks, then tank viability would be determined by how well they heal?" Are you kidding me?



As if asking for healer DPS to not be just facerolling 1111111 till our fingers grow numb from frostbite and fall off isn't something that we've been doing for literally 5 years now?

Why is it weird? It's what would happen.
If a healer is going to do more dps than a tank if optimised (as proposed by the other poster) Then the name of the game for tanks is minimising the need for a healer.
That is unfortunately going to be the only deciding factor as to why you pick a tank.
Either way, you already know my stance. If this were to ever happen, be happy. But i'll *REFUSE* to tank for you.

[ty_taurus]

Why is it weird? It's what would happen.
If a healer is going to do more dps than a tank if optimised (as proposed by the other poster) Then the name of the game for tanks is minimising the need for a healer.
That is unfortunately going to be the only deciding factor as to why you pick a tank.
Either way, you already know my stance. If this were to ever happen, be happy. But i'll *REFUSE* to tank for you.

Like how currently, the name of the game for healers is minimizing the need for a tank? If anything, what you're saying is the reverse situation. We already see how tanks minimizing the need for a healer has led to things like WAR/DPS/DPS/DPS tomestone farming. That's because healer DPS is too low, not because it's too high. The point is to try and remove the weakest link in the party because tanks have been given disproportionally high amounts of sustain for the level of damage we receive. If anything, making healers stronger would erase that problem, not exacerbate it because there would no longer be a desire to remove the weakest link from the party, and healers can't replace a tank when it comes to mass pulling and tank mechanics.

I already *REFUSE* to heal for you because healer design sucks.

[GoatOfWar]

Like how currently, the name of the game for healers is minimizing the need for a tank? If anything, what you're saying is the reverse situation. We already see how tanks minimizing the need for a healer has led to things like WAR/DPS/DPS/DPS tomestone farming. That's because healer DPS is too low, not because it's too high. The point is to try and remove the weakest link in the party because tanks have been given disproportionally high amounts of sustain for the level of damage we receive. If anything, making healers stronger would erase that problem, not exacerbate it because there would no longer be a desire to remove the weakest link from the party, and healers can't replace a tank when it comes to mass pulling and tank mechanics.

I already *REFUSE* to heal for you because healer design sucks.

Why on earth would you ever pick Drk or Gnb over War/Pld when War and Pld can help optimise the healer dps, and in turn provide a higher group damage ceiling than the other 2?
It just doesn't work. It will leave *no* design space for tanks.