Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[Supersnow845]

You can find another tank then.
Because if my efforts are going to be invalidated by someone pressing 1111111111111111111111111111111 then i'll be playing dps.

I mean you are totally missing the fact that

1) we want more complex DPS
2) we have to rely on the party

Based on the way main and mend works and how tank mastery works every time we have to drop a cast that’s equivalent to a tank losing a 700 potency attack (so let’s use goring blade) every time your healer is GCD healing they have lost a goring blade. You also have to remember healers are casters and have arguably the worst worst movement tools of the casters, your uptime is not a consideration at all and your mitigation doesn’t affect your damage

Healer DPS should be more complex but it 100% should exceed tank DPS because healer DPS is a reflection of the party, tank DPS is just a reflection of how well 1 person can play a slightly easier melee rotation

And I mean do you get angry that at least half the true DPS have easier rotations than the tanks, SMN easily but arguably MCH, RDM and even DNC are easier than GNB

[ty_taurus]

It is interesting to think because it showed the power of dots for HW Sch. You have to remember that their Broil was actually the weakest of the fillers back then. It's potency was only 170. Malefice 3 was 200 and stone 3 was 210. There was also the bit that the fairy was stronger here in HW even though it had the pet scaling and it used to have fey coveant for the magic defense and fey illumination used to be 20 percent increased healing.

Go back even further to ARR, and SCH's Ruin only had a potency of 80. I have done calculations comparing ARR SCH to EW SCH before, and if you were playing ARR SCH and managed to have maximum uptime on all 5 of their DOTs, that made up more than 80% of your total damage. Meanwhile EW SCH's Biolysis makes up less than 18% of their total damage. Even if you were playing ARR SCH and only reapplied their DOTs every 30 seconds rather than as each individual duration expired, you'd still be doing 64% of the damage you are potentially capable of dealing, and that's only 5 casts per 30 seconds. An EW SCH that casts Biolysis and then casts Broil IV 4 times is only doing 48% of the damage they're capable of dealing. EW SCH is literally a nerf when considering how much more effort you have to put into DPS in order to achieve the same results as the very first iteration of the job.

Yoshi P and the designers can say what they want about their goals with healers, but up to this point, what they have accomplished regardless of their goals is pushing healers toward higher pressure to DPS and less pressure to heal while still rendering the DPS side of healing miserable.

[GoatOfWar]

I mean you are totally missing the fact that

1) we want more complex DPS
2) we have to rely on the party

Based on the way main and mend works and how tank mastery works every time we have to drop a cast that’s equivalent to a tank losing a 700 potency attack (so let’s use goring blade) every time your healer is GCD healing they have lost a goring blade. You also have to remember healers are casters and have arguably the worst worst movement tools of the casters, your uptime is not a consideration at all and your mitigation doesn’t affect your damage

Healer DPS should be more complex but it 100% should exceed tank DPS because healer DPS is a reflection of the party, tank DPS is just a reflection of how well 1 person can play a slightly easier melee rotation

Not a single MMO i've played made healers outdps the tanks under any circumstance, let alone one where the healing checks are so minimal in FF.
It doesn't really matter how you try to contextualise it. For me it's a hard no. And if it ever does happen, i'll just play dps instead. Because it would be stupid.
Healer dps rotations are and will always be simple. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever to let them do higher dps.
I get that tanks are OP and need nerfs but let's not overreach on the demands. If you genuinely think they should, then we're done talking.
If it happens, i won't be the one tanking for you anymore.

Besides, this would a one way ticket to a PLD/WAR meta where GNB and DRK will not be viable.

[Nizzi]

actually astounding that tank mains can somehow wave away the exact situation we literally had last expac and claim that should never be allowed to happen, lmfao

[Supersnow845]

Not a single MMO i've played made healers outdps the tanks under any circumstance, let alone one where the healing checks are so minimal in FF.
It doesn't really matter how you try to contextualise it. For me it's a hard no. And if it ever does happen, i'll just play dps instead. Because it would be stupid.
Healer dps rotations are and will always be simple. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever to let them do higher dps.
I get that tanks are OP and need nerfs but let's not overreach on the demands. If you genuinely think they should, then we're done talking.
If it happens, i won't be the one tanking for you anymore.

Besides, this would a one way ticket to a PLD/WAR meta where GNB and DRK will not be viable.

I mean I’m not saying anything about you specifically, these are my thoughts, if they are so egregious to you than that’s fine, you’ll get everything you want as a tank main anyway

[GoatOfWar]

I mean I’m not saying anything about you specifically, these are my thoughts, if they are so egregious to you than that’s fine, you’ll get everything you want as a tank main anyway

I appreciate that we can disagree.
But you should know my stance on tanks now, i think tanks should be brought down.
I don't want Drk buffs.

[currentlemon]

Yesterday night, I was doing Fates with BRD and I came across an enemy NPC that could cast a really cool water spell.

I paused for a second as the spell went off and wondered, why the flying f*** does WHM not have something like this? If enemy NPCs can cast this AND a BLM Y’shtola, why not freaking WHM!!!

[ty_taurus]

Not a single MMO i've played made healers outdps the tanks under any circumstance, let alone one where the healing checks are so minimal in FF.
It doesn't really matter how you try to contextualise it. For me it's a hard no. And if it ever does happen, i'll just play dps instead. Because it would be stupid.
Healer dps rotations are and will always be simple. It just doesn't make any sense whatsoever to let them do higher dps.
I get that tanks are OP and need nerfs but let's not overreach on the demands. If you genuinely think they should, then we're done talking.
If it happens, i won't be the one tanking for you anymore.

Besides, this would a one way ticket to a PLD/WAR meta where GNB and DRK will not be viable.

Couldn't you say the same about tanks though? Tanks also aren't DPS, so I could use the exact same logic to say "it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to let them do higher DPS than healers. If they did, I'd just play DPS instead."

Consider that dealing damage is more synergistic with a healer's goals than a tank's. A tank's goal is to endure, regardless of how long that takes. Survive until the party can win. A healer's goal is to heal and prevent damage as much as possible, and there's no better prevention of damage than the enemy being KOed, because that's a 100% damage mitigation.

"But aggro!" Except aggro doesn't need high damage to be generated because of tank stance. And even if tanking wasn't so mindlessly simple, aggro isn't inherently associated with high damage. High healing actually generates more aggro than damage generally, and that's not to say you can't have effects that generate aggro without doing damage at all. Flash says hi.

[GoatOfWar]

Couldn't you say the same about tanks though? Tanks also aren't DPS, so I could use the exact same logic to say "it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to let them do higher DPS than healers. If they did, I'd just play DPS instead."

Consider that dealing damage is more synergistic with a healer's goals than a tank's. A tank's goal is to endure, regardless of how long that takes. Survive until the party can win. A healer's goal is to heal and prevent damage as much as possible, and there's no better prevention of damage than the enemy being KOed, because that's a 100% damage mitigation.

"But aggro!" Except aggro doesn't need high damage to be generated because of tank stance. And even if tanking wasn't so mindlessly simple, aggro isn't inherently associated with high damage. High healing actually generates more aggro than damage generally, and that's not to say you can't have effects that generate aggro without doing damage at all. Flash says hi.

If you're going to start making healer dps more important or equally as important as your tank damage, then you're restricting your viable tank choices to whichever can reduce and heal damage the most.
Gnb and Drk wouldn't be viable if you had to think of your healer damage in your choice of tanks. You'd default into PLD and War unless they all became identical. It would leave even less design space.
Because then, the goal becomes minimising the need for a healer for maximum gains. And the incoming damage is already low. But it doesn't end there, i'd reckon a lot of people (Myself included) would no longer feel motivated to play tank. Think about it, why play something with an engaging dps rotation when you'll be outdone by someone mashing 1111111111111111111111111111111 with their forehead from range.
I line everthing up for a burst window and make sure no cooldowns and resources go wasted, they roll their forehead over their 1 button.
At that point i'll just switch over to a dps job, because i think that's kind of insulting to my efforts.

I'd quit tanking the same day they'd push this into the game.
Frankly, i think healer dps is already too close to tank dps.

[ty_taurus]

If you're going to start making healer dps more important or equally as important as your tank damage, then you're restricting your viable tank choices to whichever can reduce and heal damage the most.

I've been playing this game since ARR launched in 2013, and I've been around the forums since basically the very beginning. I don't think I've ever seen such an absurd claim. I don't even know what to say because absolutely nothing about this makes an ounce of sense. "If healers did more damage than tanks, then tank viability would be determined by how well they heal?" Are you kidding me?

Because then, the goal becomes minimising the need for a healer for maximum gains. And the incoming damage is already low. But it doesn't end there, i'd reckon a lot of people (Myself included) would no longer feel motivated to play tank. Think about it, why play something with an engaging dps rotation when you'll be outdone by someone mashing 1111111111111111111111111111111 with their forehead from range.

As if asking for healer DPS to not be just facerolling 1111111 till our fingers grow numb from frostbite and fall off isn't something that we've been doing for literally 5 years now?

But it doesn't end there, i'd reckon a lot of people (Myself included) would no longer feel motivated to play tank.

You mean like how a lot of people (myself included) have not felt motivated to play healer, or even the game itself for years because healers are weak and have stupidly boring DPS?