Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[WaxSw]

Why cant they design healers to have low entry points for the casual healers and have high ceiling to incentivize skilled players?

Because when you play a healer you're not seen as a player. You are a slot that has to be filled so the real players can have fun

[Supersnow845]

^yeah the biggest tank healer damage discrepancy problem in EW is a tank simply does more damage than a perfect healer (by about 1000-1500 rDPS so not insignificant)

Healers should win if you can optimise out GCD healing or minimise it but tanks should win in unoptimised environments because their play is entirely on them

Right now there is no scenario where healers can do more damage

[ty_taurus]

I don't really agree that they should be more or less equal, because healers usually operate at an expected loss while tank performance is entirely on their own play.

Im totally fine with either angle, that healers have the same output with an expected lower performance or a higher output with the same expected performance. Either direction I’m happy with.

As for the the order of healers specifically, I feel that raid buffs should be calculated into a healers total damage, and what should actually determine their damage should be their utility. Each healer should have their own unique form of utility that allows them to counter specific, common mechanics in ways that the others cannot. We already see this with Expedient on SCH. Bringing a SCH allows your party to clear movement and positioning based mechanics more easily, which does save people wipes. AST kind of has something similar with Macrocosmos where despite being a heal does provide utility in its ability to bypass infirmity heal checks completely. Unfortunately, infirmity heal checks are extremely rare. If they were common, then Macrocosmos would be utility in my book. Though if I’m being honest, I feel like bypassing infirmity should’ve really been WHM’s thing. Having an AOE benediction for example could allow them to effortlessly clear heal checks that otherwise pressure the other healers to burn LB3 if they didn’t save the right heals. Meanwhile, SGE’s utility should be that they’re a cut above the other healers in DPS output, offering no ways to tackle any specific mechanic on their own, but give the party an easier time meeting enrage requirements, allowing the DPS to make more mistakes. This angle just needs to be more deeply invested in.

But sadly, WHM is the one healer who doesn’t really have a clear direction at this time. But before, I’ve suggested Float, which allows the party to ignore floor and puddle damage. But that also sounds more like an AST thing too since Float is often a form of time magic.

In any case, factoring in buff damage, I’d set up the layout like this:

SGE > WHM = SCH = AST

With WHM, SCH, and AST each having ways to counter specific mechanics while SGE does not, instead making enrage timers slightly easier to meet. Ideally, each of their tools should feel evenly applicable like how Expedient feels fairly effective against most fights.

[Maltothoris]

It is interesting to think because it showed the power of dots for HW Sch. You have to remember that their Broil was actually the weakest of the fillers back then. It's potency was only 170. Malefice 3 was 200 and stone 3 was 210. There was also the bit that the fairy was stronger here in HW even though it had the pet scaling and it used to have fey coveant for the magic defense and fey illumination used to be 20 percent increased healing.

[Supersnow845]

I never understood why they chose to nerf illumination. I’m glad they never chose to delete it but like dissipation you can certainly make the argument in the modern day that it’s effect really doesn’t reflect its CD (whether yoy think that’s because modern CD’s are too strong or old CD’s are too weak)

The small magic mitigation is fine maybe just buff its healing potency back to 20% or make it healing actions rather than magic, or even do something like make it specifically able to buff the next fairy action, like you could bake rouse into illumination so you can use it to buff whispering dawn

[GoatOfWar]

^yeah the biggest tank healer damage discrepancy problem in EW is a tank simply does more damage than a perfect healer (by about 1000-1500 rDPS so not insignificant)

Healers should win if you can optimise out GCD healing or minimise it but tanks should win in unoptimised environments because their play is entirely on them

Right now there is no scenario where healers can do more damage

Hard pass.
I don't want to do less dps than someone mashing 1 button.

[Supersnow845]

Hard pass.
I don't want to do less dps than someone mashing 1 button.

That’s what we are discussing, our damage is contingent on the party working together with we have to stop damage to keep the party alive, your damage is entirely based on yourself

We want more damage options but still we are beholden to the party, you are not, healers can’t reach their damage potential without the entire party being competent, that’s why a perfect healer should out DPS a perfect tank, because it reflects 8 people playing well not just one

[rawker]

Hard pass.
I don't want to do less dps than someone mashing 1 button.

EW SMN has similar dps rotation as healers but it can out dps tanks

[Maltothoris]

I never understood why they chose to nerf illumination. I’m glad they never chose to delete it but like dissipation you can certainly make the argument in the modern day that it’s effect really doesn’t reflect its CD (whether yoy think that’s because modern CD’s are too strong or old CD’s are too weak)

The small magic mitigation is fine maybe just buff its healing potency back to 20% or make it healing actions rather than magic, or even do something like make it specifically able to buff the next fairy action, like you could bake rouse into illumination so you can use it to buff whispering dawn

I wouldn't be surprised is if they saw how strong the deploy critlos were getting and of course, noct astro didn't really have anything that could compete with it so they went for that stealth nerf there, even though it wasn't one.Not to mention it paired well with whispering dawn and with a roused embrace with it meaning even stronger hots.

[GoatOfWar]

That’s what we are discussing, our damage is contingent on the party working together with we have to stop damage to keep the party alive, your damage is entirely based on yourself

We want more damage options but still we are beholden to the party, you are not, healers can’t reach their damage potential without the entire party being competent, that’s why a perfect healer should out DPS a perfect tank, because it reflects 8 people playing well not just one

You can find another tank then.
Because if my efforts are going to be invalidated by someone pressing 1111111111111111111111111111111 then i'll be playing dps.