Yoshi-P: "If you want more engaging content, go play Ultimate"

[GoatOfWar]

Couldn't you say the same about tanks though? Tanks also aren't DPS, so I could use the exact same logic to say "it doesn't make any sense whatsoever to let them do higher DPS than healers. If they did, I'd just play DPS instead."

Consider that dealing damage is more synergistic with a healer's goals than a tank's. A tank's goal is to endure, regardless of how long that takes. Survive until the party can win. A healer's goal is to heal and prevent damage as much as possible, and there's no better prevention of damage than the enemy being KOed, because that's a 100% damage mitigation.

"But aggro!" Except aggro doesn't need high damage to be generated because of tank stance. And even if tanking wasn't so mindlessly simple, aggro isn't inherently associated with high damage. High healing actually generates more aggro than damage generally, and that's not to say you can't have effects that generate aggro without doing damage at all. Flash says hi.

If you're going to start making healer dps more important or equally as important as your tank damage, then you're restricting your viable tank choices to whichever can reduce and heal damage the most.
Gnb and Drk wouldn't be viable if you had to think of your healer damage in your choice of tanks. You'd default into PLD and War unless they all became identical. It would leave even less design space.
Because then, the goal becomes minimising the need for a healer for maximum gains. And the incoming damage is already low. But it doesn't end there, i'd reckon a lot of people (Myself included) would no longer feel motivated to play tank. Think about it, why play something with an engaging dps rotation when you'll be outdone by someone mashing 1111111111111111111111111111111 with their forehead from range.
I line everthing up for a burst window and make sure no cooldowns and resources go wasted, they roll their forehead over their 1 button.
At that point i'll just switch over to a dps job, because i think that's kind of insulting to my efforts.

I'd quit tanking the same day they'd push this into the game.
Frankly, i think healer dps is already too close to tank dps.

[ty_taurus]

If you're going to start making healer dps more important or equally as important as your tank damage, then you're restricting your viable tank choices to whichever can reduce and heal damage the most.

I've been playing this game since ARR launched in 2013, and I've been around the forums since basically the very beginning. I don't think I've ever seen such an absurd claim. I don't even know what to say because absolutely nothing about this makes an ounce of sense. "If healers did more damage than tanks, then tank viability would be determined by how well they heal?" Are you kidding me?

Because then, the goal becomes minimising the need for a healer for maximum gains. And the incoming damage is already low. But it doesn't end there, i'd reckon a lot of people (Myself included) would no longer feel motivated to play tank. Think about it, why play something with an engaging dps rotation when you'll be outdone by someone mashing 1111111111111111111111111111111 with their forehead from range.

As if asking for healer DPS to not be just facerolling 1111111 till our fingers grow numb from frostbite and fall off isn't something that we've been doing for literally 5 years now?

But it doesn't end there, i'd reckon a lot of people (Myself included) would no longer feel motivated to play tank.

You mean like how a lot of people (myself included) have not felt motivated to play healer, or even the game itself for years because healers are weak and have stupidly boring DPS?

[GoatOfWar]

I've been playing this game since ARR launched in 2013, and I've been around the forums since basically the very beginning. I don't think I've ever seen such an absurd claim. I don't even know what to say because absolutely nothing about this makes an ounce of sense. "If healers did more damage than tanks, then tank viability would be determined by how well they heal?" Are you kidding me?



As if asking for healer DPS to not be just facerolling 1111111 till our fingers grow numb from frostbite and fall off isn't something that we've been doing for literally 5 years now?

Why is it weird? It's what would happen.
If a healer is going to do more dps than a tank if optimised (as proposed by the other poster) Then the name of the game for tanks is minimising the need for a healer.
That is unfortunately going to be the only deciding factor as to why you pick a tank.
Either way, you already know my stance. If this were to ever happen, be happy. But i'll *REFUSE* to tank for you.

[ty_taurus]

Why is it weird? It's what would happen.
If a healer is going to do more dps than a tank if optimised (as proposed by the other poster) Then the name of the game for tanks is minimising the need for a healer.
That is unfortunately going to be the only deciding factor as to why you pick a tank.
Either way, you already know my stance. If this were to ever happen, be happy. But i'll *REFUSE* to tank for you.

Like how currently, the name of the game for healers is minimizing the need for a tank? If anything, what you're saying is the reverse situation. We already see how tanks minimizing the need for a healer has led to things like WAR/DPS/DPS/DPS tomestone farming. That's because healer DPS is too low, not because it's too high. The point is to try and remove the weakest link in the party because tanks have been given disproportionally high amounts of sustain for the level of damage we receive. If anything, making healers stronger would erase that problem, not exacerbate it because there would no longer be a desire to remove the weakest link from the party, and healers can't replace a tank when it comes to mass pulling and tank mechanics.

I already *REFUSE* to heal for you because healer design sucks.

[GoatOfWar]

Like how currently, the name of the game for healers is minimizing the need for a tank? If anything, what you're saying is the reverse situation. We already see how tanks minimizing the need for a healer has led to things like WAR/DPS/DPS/DPS tomestone farming. That's because healer DPS is too low, not because it's too high. The point is to try and remove the weakest link in the party because tanks have been given disproportionally high amounts of sustain for the level of damage we receive. If anything, making healers stronger would erase that problem, not exacerbate it because there would no longer be a desire to remove the weakest link from the party, and healers can't replace a tank when it comes to mass pulling and tank mechanics.

I already *REFUSE* to heal for you because healer design sucks.

Why on earth would you ever pick Drk or Gnb over War/Pld when War and Pld can help optimise the healer dps, and in turn provide a higher group damage ceiling than the other 2?
It just doesn't work. It will leave *no* design space for tanks.

[OgruMogru]

Why on earth would you ever pick Drk or Gnb over War/Pld when War and Pld can help optimise the healer dps, and in turn provide a higher group damage ceiling than the other 2?
It just doesn't work. It will leave *no* design space for tanks.

As things stand right now, why would anyone bother taking a healer into any content when sustain from tanks is enough to enable no healer compositions and therefore more dps in all content the game has to offer?

[GoatOfWar]

As things stand right now, why would anyone bother taking a healer into any content when sustain from tanks is enough to enable no healer compositions and therefore more dps in all content the game has to offer?

That's a separate issue that i've been bitching about for a year now.
Check my post history if you want to, i've been complaining about tank sustain for a long time.

[Supersnow845]

Why on earth would you ever pick Drk or Gnb over War/Pld when War and Pld can help optimise the healer dps, and in turn provide a higher group damage ceiling than the other 2?
It just doesn't work. It will leave *no* design space for tanks.

Because as we’ve said before and what you’ve agreed on when it’s discussed on the tank forums, ALL of the tanks are too powerful, if healer DPS is buffed we still don’t need tanks to do our jobs for us to attain our DPS potential in good groups

The idea that healers can only attain their optimised DPS potential if you bring two tanks that do the healers job for them is completely ignorant of just how powerful the healers actually in on the healing front of the game ever actually allowed them to use more than 1/10th of their kit

[GoatOfWar]

I'm just going to leave it here, too many people are responding to me and i can't keep up with it.
And it doesn't look like either side will budge.
As a final statement, i agree that tanks need their sustain and survivability nerfed. As a former healer main, i also wish healers had more dps buttons and a bit more to heal.
But i just don't think healers should have higher damage ceilings. Because this will further cripple the narrow design space in the tank roster.

[ty_taurus]

Why on earth would you ever pick Drk or Gnb over War/Pld when War and Pld can help optimise the healer dps, and in turn provide a higher group damage ceiling than the other 2?
It just doesn't work. It will leave *no* design space for tanks.

Okay, I think I understand what you're trying to say now. I don't think you did a good job of explaining this if true, but you're trying to say that non-healers that can heal would allow the healers to spend slightly less GCDs on healing and thus squeeze out more DPS? Assuming that would be a concern in the first place, it wouldn't be specifically a tank thing, so I'm not sure why you were trying to make it about tanks. There are DPS jobs with healing resources as well. Why would that be an issue for tank design space and not physical ranged? Or caster?

But there are a number of reasons why that wouldn't be true even with everything else we currently have staying relatively the same, more than I care to list. But the one I'd say is the most telling would be that the amount of GCDs you'd conserve for DPS is not going to lead to a particularly high amount of increased damage. The damage Scholar and Astrologian gain from raid buffs is likely far more valuable than a few extra personal DPS spells throughout a fight.

But in case you missed the literal 5 years of arguments going around, the people who are talking about healer damage balance here are also the ones saying that healers shouldn't have faceroll 111111 DPS combos. I'm not sure why you were completely disregarding that massive point because it's quite integral to the conversation. Because expanding each healer's DPS arsenal will consequently take potency out of their spammable attack spell to be redirected into new attacks with limited uses. In case you missed the last several pages, I specifically have been talking about how constantly increasing the potency of our basic attack spell is hurting the healer experience and adding way more pressure than is necessary for healers to maintain DPS uptime. If we slashed the potency of those attacks and put that potency into other parts of the kit, that also circumvents your worry because gaining a few extra Glares and Broils would mean far less anyway. Moreover, wouldn't you just balance the outgoing damage of jobs without healing support to be at least a little higher than the jobs that do have it? Something we already see to some degree?

Also, what you're essentially talking about is synergy, and a relatively mild form of it at that. FFXIV has had far more egregious forms of synergy, and yet despite that, not only was every job viable back then, but had decent play rates. If Monks were clearing Savage during Stormblood and getting into PF groups with ease despite the Dragoon + Bard meta being a thing, then no, Dark Knight and Gunbreaker would have absolutely nothing to worry about.