How Would You Design Red Mage!?

[Duelle]

However I still don't agree that RDM needs to be a top-line DPS in order to be accepted in the front lines

To be honest, if Fencer/RDM was within 5% overall DPS of a DRG, I'd probably be happy. The difference is so miniscule that your average group leader would not turn a FNC/RDM down due to low damage (they could use something else like "all DPS spots are taken", which is more than fair).

So if the general consensus is that Red Mage should be a DPS job (which would be fine with me) then it should certainly be postponed until the second round of job additions.

Agreed.

Which is exactly what I would like out of Red Mage, a support role job isn't about being powerful yourself, it's about making everyone else even better.

Until the group figures a way around having you in the party and replacing you with a "real" damage dealer.

I'm not trying to antagonize you, by the way. I'm just speaking from experience and seeing that approach tried and failed.

[stanleyyoung]

you are right about rdm not being designed for top line dps, a good route for it would be a enfleebler or almost green mage like but still having the abiultiy to dps. right now we got healing and nuking covered by con/whm & thm/blm. a class or job that puts many negative status on a enemy will really add something to 14, and bring somtheing good to a party especially where you would be doing endgame content or boss,etc. i see it as a good thing when rdm would have a great ability to put many negative status on a mob/mobs to were it can determine the outcome of a fight and save a party from wiping.

[Eremor]

Until the group figures a way around having you in the party and replacing you with a "real" damage dealer.

True, but this is pretty much the case with every job. PLD gets replaced by the 'real' tank, ARC gets replaced by the 'real' ranged DD, DRG gets replaced by the 'real' melee DPS.

But thats why you add some versatility, the enspells aren't the only form of debuffs, maybe there will be cases where spells like silence or paralyze will more then make up for the lack of DPS. My build also includes Refresh and Haste, I don't mind refresh being part of the Red Mage's role (just so long as it doesn't become the only role), a good support role job should be able to enhance all other jobs not just the melee DPS.

Edit: And when in XI was Bard ever replaced with a 'real' DD?

[Alhanelem]

I wouldn't design it at all, because I don't presume to be an expert on game design.

Whats with all these threads about red mage all of a sudden?

[Duelle]

True, but this is pretty much the case with every job. PLD gets replaced by the 'real' tank, ARC gets replaced by the 'real' ranged DD, DRG gets replaced by the 'real' melee DPS.

And this distinction should not exist, as it urinates on your ability to choose to play a job. You then become unable to play a job because you like it and instead have play a job because it is the most efficient.

And when in XI was Bard ever replaced with a 'real' DD?

Bard =/= Red Mage. Bard had no melee option built in, and instead was just a buff job. Red Mage had a melee option as part of the concept but it was abandoned in favor of enfeebling, heals and refresh.

Whats with all these threads about red mage all of a sudden?

If there was a poll about jobs, it was bound to happen. When XIV was first announced the first thread made in Allakhazam's XIV forums was "Red Mage". The direction the job took in XI has caused arguments and trolling from both who liked the backrow caster and those who wanted to melee, so it is not surprising to see that re-emmerge here again.

[ThunderTopaz]

All I really want is a R. Mage with physical Magic spells like setting your sword on fire or something.
Or maybe go with the classic R. Mage and make some sort of balance or mix between White and Black magic.

Either way, those red robes and that fencer hat is awesome

[Eremor]

And this distinction should not exist

Unfortunately as long as more then one person is playing the game this distinction will always exist

All we can do is try to mitigate it as best we can with balances or play with good friends who just want to play the jobs they like and let others do the same.

As for BRD vs RDM, I can't speak for after the level cap was raised past 75 but at 75 a competent BRD with a good dagger could easily out DPS a RDM because they had access to better weaponskills (Dancing Edge) and because their buffs were superior to anything RDM had.

Not that that matters at all here with Barcher, which gives me a good idea, RDM DPS should probably be best compared to Bard damage here, I think that would be a good target goal.

[Vanguard319]

main class: gld with thm and cnj as subsets

role: DD/CC

Strengths: able to use both schools of magic, melee is more geared toward DD than gld/pld
can equip lantern shields/mail, well suited to enfeebling/enhancing self/party

Weaknesses: cannot equip heaviest armor or shields, MP pool limited compared to Whm/Blm, no auto refresh

Skills:
accuracy bonus
fast cast
magic potency bonus

abilities:
Composure - increases melee/magic acc and spell recasts by 15% buffs duration on self increased

Ice spikes - deals ice dmg when hit, may paralyze target
Wind blades - deal wind dmg when hit, may silence target
Diaga - Aoe astral dot and def down
Haste - reduces auto attack delay and recast times
enblizzard - melee attacks gain ice dmg, reduces resistance to wind element
enaero - melee attacks gain wind dmg, reduces resistance to fire element
(all non aoe spells can be used w sacred prism)

Energy Drain - 75% dmg dealt is recovered as MP, combo bonus increases dmg
Death Blossom - deals astral/umbral dmg and imperils target, combo bonus increases imperil duration

Chainspell - cast spells with 0 casting time/recast for duration of ability

[SwordCoheir]

Well I've been thinking about how exactly to include black and white magic and melee together without making it too powerful or under powered while fitting it in with the 15 ability limit for the class, and I might just have come up with some rough ideas at the class level that lies outside of enfeebling (at least directly). The idea kinda follows Steiner's Magic Sword abilities from FFIX. Instead of having enspells we actually do magical weaponskill combos, I'm not talking that weak BS like in FFXI with Fast Blade > Burning Blade > Red Lotus Blade I'm talking full on nuke damage (granted not as potent ad BLM spells). And throw in some support and maybe some kind of healing ability in there as well, here are some rough ideas.

Examples:

Weaponskills

Physical Accuracy Based / Magical Damage Based
No directional requirements to Combo

Blizzard Blade > Blizzra Blade
TP Cost: 1000 / 2000 MP Cost: 10~100 / 100~250
Combo Bonus: DoT / Paralyze / Bind Duration: 15-30 Seconds

Astral Blade > Banishing Blade
TP Cost: 1000 / 2000 MP Cost: 10~100 / 100~250
Combo Bonus: DoT / Defense Down / Magic Defense Down

Umbral Blade > Scourging Blade
TP Cost: 1000 / 2000 MP Cost: 10~100 / 100~250
Combo Bonus: DoT / Attack Down / Magic Attack Down

JAs:
Runic Blade: Next Weaponskill consumes no MP and restores MP based on damage dealt.

Focused Mind: Increases the duration for the next Enhancing Spell cast.

Arcane Mastery: Increases the damage of the next ability used.

Spells:

Sacrifice: Exchange some of your HP in order to heal an ally. (1:2 ratio for every HP lost the target regains 2, HP% lost based on maximum HP)
Cast: 3 Seconds, Recast: 5-10 Seconds, MP Cost: 25~250, HP Cost: 25% (Can target self, MP cost keeps from being an infinite heal)

Temper: Increases the attack of target and party members in range.
Cast: 3 Seconds, Recast: 1:00 Minute, MP Cost: 25~250, Duration: 3:00 Minutes

Fog: Increases the evasion of target and party members in range.
Cast: 3 Seconds, Recast: 1:00 Minute, MP Cost: 25~250, Duration: 3:00 Minutes

I might build up on this later as another alternative set.

[Duelle]

Well I've been thinking about how exactly to include black and white magic and melee together without making it too powerful or under powered while fitting it in with the 15 ability limit for the class, and I might just have come up with some rough ideas at the class level that lies outside of enfeebling (at least directly). The idea kinda follows Steiner's Magic Sword abilities from FFIX. Instead of having enspells we actually do magical weaponskill combos, I'm not talking that weak BS like in FFXI with Fast Blade > Burning Blade > Red Lotus Blade I'm talking full on nuke damage (granted not as potent ad BLM spells). And throw in some support and maybe some kind of healing ability in there as well, here are some rough ideas.

I can get behind this. Might wanna rename Sacrifice to Chant/Wish, though. =P