How Would You Design Red Mage!?

[Jinko]

Red Mage needs to do more then just barely survive devastating AOE attacks as that would just produce a extra drain on the healer, and since it is unlikely that RDM would be a powerful DD job it pretty much needs to be able to take care of itself in order to be accepted in the front lines.

Hmm I have seen this kind of thinking a lot lately why is it considered healing melee as a waste of resources ?

Isn't the point of a healer to heal whoever needs healing, yet people in this game seem to think of healer = tank only, screw everyone else.

RDM doesn't need to be self sufficient any more than the next class, healers just need to learn to heal everyone.

(and I was also annoyed at how the topic somehow meandered off to discussing Summoner...)

There was a few comments about summoners but nothing much, I mentioned green mage quite a bit mainly because I think your build above would suit that better than a RDM. (minus the close combat skills)

[Duelle]

Hmm I have seen this kind of thinking a lot lately why is it considered healing melee as a waste of resources?

Probably because MP is still a hot comodity from the looks of it. It'd be one thing if WHM and BLM were designed with MP regen after using certain abilities or refund mechanics to their spells through traits, but Matsui seems to be obsessed with having a refresh role in groups. =/

Isn't the point of a healer to heal whoever needs healing, yet people in this game seem to think of healer = tank only, screw everyone else.

This is due to differences in application. If healing was quick, easy to get off, with MP efficacy built in and easy to AoE and whatnot, then yeah there's no excuse for a healer to not heal melee aside from the tank. Usually, the more "precious" MP is, the more melee become a liability.

I didn't say that every job in melee range needs to be self sufficient. I said that Red Mage specifically should be mostly self sufficient (if it was wholly self sufficient then that would pretty much make it severely overpowered in solo situations) because of the fact that it would not be seen as a damage dealing job, and therefore the public opinion would be against having a "useless" job taking extra damage in melee range when it should just be sitting in the back lines casting refresh and haste.

The funny thing about game mechanics is that they can very well change the opinion of people when applied properly. If RDM in this current incarnation is going to be a magic fencer with enfeebles tacked on, then I expect it to be front-line worthy in DPS, with the enfeebles adding to their contribution and going from there. You or others may have a hard time wrapping their brains around the idea of a RDM being something other than support, but not all of us are like that.

[Firon]

Probably because MP is still a hot comodity from the looks of it. It'd be one thing if WHM and BLM were designed with MP regen after using certain abilities or refund mechanics to their spells through traits, but Matsui seems to be obsessed with having a refresh role in groups. =/
This is due to differences in application. If healing was quick, easy to get off, with MP efficacy built in and easy to AoE and whatnot, then yeah there's no excuse for a healer to not heal melee aside from the tank. Usually, the more "precious" MP is, the more melee become a liability.
The funny thing about game mechanics is that they can very well change the opinion of people when applied properly. If RDM in this current incarnation is going to be a magic fencer with enfeebles tacked on, then I expect it to be front-line worthy in DPS, with the enfeebles adding to their contribution and going from there. You or others may have a hard time wrapping their brains around the idea of a RDM being something other than support, but not all of us are like that.

Have to disagree about he mp issue on whm they have so much extra mp to use during fights its crazy. I have soloed healed ifrit with 1 tank 1 whm(me) the rest close range melee or blm. To simply put whm's are lazy and don't want to heal anyone else but the tank. Only mmo i ever played where a melee can sit in red hp and the whm will ignore the when the tanks hp is full.

[Delsus]

RDM will only be good with haste and refresh, RDM without them is like DRG without a polearm

[Eremor]

I didn't say that every job in melee range needs to be self sufficient. I said that Red Mage specifically should be mostly self sufficient (if it was wholly self sufficient then that would pretty much make it severely overpowered in solo situations) because of the fact that it would not be seen as a damage dealing job, and therefore the public opinion would be against having a "useless" job taking extra damage in melee range when it should just be sitting in the back lines casting refresh and haste.

[Eremor]

The problem with RDM being a competent DPS job in addition to debuffing and potentially buffing as well is balance. If RDM parses any where near MNK or even DRG in addition to being able to lock down enemies with potent debuffs (silence, paralyze, etc) then wtf is the point of MNK and DRG? Flip side, if RDM is a powerful DPS and the enfeebles are very weak to maintain balance then what's the point of RDM?

Trying to fill a gap in the job line up here, we don't need another dedicated DPS job, there is currently no dedicated debuffer so looks like thats what we need. If you don't want that debuffer to be front line thats fine, but thats not Red Mage. I'd be fine with Time Mage or whatever being a dedicated back line debuffing job, but we aren't talking about Time Mage here. Better no Red Mage at all then a back line Red Mage.

[Duelle]

The problem with RDM being a competent DPS job in addition to debuffing and potentially buffing as well is balance. If RDM parses any where near MNK or even DRG in addition to being able to lock down enemies with potent debuffs (silence, paralyze, etc)

Absolutes should not be part of this equation. And by that I mean Silence, Paralyze, Amnesia and any other debuff that shuts down an aspect of a target. Weakening stats, slowing attacks, slowing casting times, weakening all damage, weakening defenses, weakening resistance to critical hits are fine and fit enfeebling. And can't be used as an excuse for notably lower damage.

then wtf is the point of MNK and DRG?

A guy that hits things with his fists and a guy with a lance that jumps. Neither is RDM, and RDM is like neither. Maybe the player doesn't want to wear a pimp hat and instead likes hitting things with his fists. You're treading awfully close to the hybrid apocalypse nonsense.

That aside, I don't want my favorite job to become the target for idiotic changes after the fact like RDM was during the revamp when it was given A+ enfeebling skill and Refresh to try to justify its place in a party. I don't want it to become a backline-only job. I don't want the sword to collect dust and be looked down upon. As I've said long ago, I did my time as debuff/buff/refresh-bot. Let our job move on to something better, please.

PS: The reason I am so adamant about RDM haviing comparable damage is because it's going to get benched otherwise. FFXI readily proved this, and was aggravated by the fact that people were desperate for heals. Debuffs/buffs/"utility" never make up for lacking damage, and never will. That being said, I agree that better to have no Red Mage at all than to have the mistakes from FFXI repeated here.

Hexa Blade (Ws Six-fold attack, Combo Dual Slash, Lowers defense to Enfeebling Magic )

Fixed. >.>

[Jinko]

PS: The reason I am so adamant about RDM haviing comparable damage is because it's going to get benched otherwise. FFXI readily proved this, and was aggravated by the fact that people were desperate for heals. Debuffs/buffs/"utility" never make up for lacking damage, and never will. That being said, I agree that better to have no Red Mage at all than to have the mistakes from FFXI repeated here.

I agree with this, if you make the class melee you have to make it comparable to other melee it terms of either damage or usefulness otherwise it will just get benched.

We already have situations were X class stacked by 5 plus 2 healers and a tank are occurring, so yea make it matter or don't bother at all.

On the other hand we don't want to see a situation where 5 rdm's go in shock/silence/paralyze the boss to oblivion either lol.

[Volsung]

After thinking about it: 5 abilities is all we get so how do we design something? Well here is something with very little thought that maybe someone else could build off of. If it is based on gladiator it could have blm and whm subs. I'm hoping they will add swords more geared to magic stats. or hell make an all new rapier class.

1 a self healing ability that adds an effect for you to gain mp by slashing at the enemy, long duration maybe
2 spell combo off of flat blade that does light damage: additional effect AoE refresh
3 WS combo off of savage blade: additional effect enemy def down (maybe adds DoT?)
4 WS combo off of flat blade: additional effect AoE haste (small percent)
5 Chainspell your next 3 WS or spells have no recast

maybe AF could enhance the haste or refresh or enemy def down

[Firon]

Also This is why i made the suggestion i did in the other thread cause most ppl when they write up rdm they want them to be debuffers. It was a reason why i suggested they put all the debuffs on rdm's melee skills. It also why i suggested their spells cost tp instead of mp so the class wont be sitting with their sword tucked away trying to get mp back, I'll Repost some points i made in OP in the other thread.

1. Make rdm spells cost tp

2. make ws and spells combo into each other

3. only make enhancing spells cost mp