We need to compromise as a player base

[Zeastria]

Most of us here are unhappy about the same things can see the same on JP forums:

-Skin
-Eyes
-Mouth
-Lips
-Eyebrows
-Facial hair
-Hair texture bugs
-Au'ra Scales
-Fangs
..ect

There is a reason for that:
Shaders and Textures are the main culprit here.
(has most "complaints" about).

They simply turn out worse for many races/genders,
Some of the changes(updates) look good on some, but not on others..
There is a huge difference on how dark/light colored skin, along with dark/light colored hair takes to the changes too.

Upgrade should be an upgrade, not a downgrade!..

[execlinca]

I'm happy with all the graphical updates they have showcased so far. But changing the design of the characters isn't what they promised.

Few examples of design changes:
- Dilated pupils on F Au Ra.
- Smaller pupils on Veena Viera.
- Fuller lips all across the board.
- Mid Hyur beards being less visible.
- Scars look like a hair strand.
- Removed static eye highlights.

These does not look like incidents or byproducts of the graphic updates. It looks like a person or a team with full conscious decided to change the design in the process of reworking the character 3D models.

I agree with the other changes, but removing static eye highlights was mentioned before on a panel, either a PLL or one of the fanfests, where they said there would be real lighting instead. I feel it perhaps needs to be intensified, to avoid the dead eyed look, but they never said they weren't removing static highlights.

Otherwise though, some things it does seem like they actively changed the vision of a race and I really feel for people going through that. Femra are really in shambles right now, especially with certain face types.

[Hejligan]

As I see it, there are three tiers of changes, which we can criticise with different force. There is a difference between systematic changes due to complex interaction of factors in graphics on the one hand, and specific changes to assets on the other.

In the first case, some of these things are very easy to identify, like the skin now looking "off" in many lighting conditions, or the fact that female Miqo'te lips just feel far too smudged and different now (which I am pretty sure is not an intentional change), which we should criticise rather openly.

But in some cases these changes will be very complex, due to so many factors interacting with each other that makes things look different, and those we should criticise less harshly, because they are not necessarily direct, intended changes that one can simple flip a switch at, but might be fundamentally tied to upgrades in the graphics themselves (all though still provide feedback).

But then there is a different category, the more specific and intentional changes to assets, like actually changing the models of eyelashes. The specific differences go against their stated philosophy about these changes, which was to essentially not change the basic look of characters. These things we can criticise rather more forcefully.

tl;dr

While it is true that not everything can be identical in such a massive graphical update, having (for example) different and massively thickened eyelashes isn't a necessary consequence of improved graphics, and we should criticise it. Having a consequence of graphical changes be that our characters look to be on the verge of passing out, due to how it makes our skin and eyes look, should be criticised too, because there are still limits to how different things are supposed to look.

[Kindred008]

The graphical update is meant as an upgrade. It is meant to improve on what we have already, not cause a downgrade for so many people and to make our characters unrecognizable. Right now, so many characters have a unique visual identity that makes them special. You can improve the graphics without taking that away.

[aemon_azucar]

Unfortunately, we're going to have some amount of "tragedy of the commons" on this one and I don't think that can be avoided. Because every person who isn't happy with the results has every reason to get hopping mad about the change and demand a fix for their specific issue. From their perspective, it's one relatively small change, perhaps a day of work, something that almost certainly could be squeezed in before launch. But say 20% of the active fanbase is upset. That's hundreds of thousands of people. Even if we assume that 99% of those claims are redundant, that's still thousands of "just a day or two" changes to be made. Meaning, it'd take thousands of days to implement them all, and that's definitely never going to happen.

And yet, for every person who wants a change and doesn't get one, what happens? They'll be upset. They'll feel resentful--and why shouldn't they? "Someone else got their changes, but I didn't!"

Thus, many, many, many people walk away feeling they've been ignored or even actively snubbed, despite the dev team doing everything they can. As you say, it might even be enough to convince them to just never bother with future graphic updates that affect player characters, thus dooming the 80% of satisfied customers (plus however many folks got their complaints addressed) to never get any further benefits. Because even when the vast majority of people are happy, and the vast majority of upset players get a fix for what bothers them, that can still leave thousands or even tens of thousands of people angry and motivated.

Even when you have 99% satisfaction, 1% of ~1M is still ~10k. Out of ten thousand unhappy customers, it's quite likely that a handful will be angry enough and motivated enough to kick up a fuss...or worse.

[Zaniel]

Please keep posting technical and jarring issues you are finding that need to be addressed. However, lets keep in mind that upgrading the graphics is a net benefit to the game and if some changes alter the looks somewhat and are subjective we will have to compromise to make sure this game can go into the future along with us. I'm sure we'll find something we like with the phantasia and especially if they revamp the character creator in the future.

So the message I'm trying to convey is lets not make the devs regret their decision to attempt this and decide to never do it again. As players, we need to keep pointing out issues but be supportive of this direction to change the game for the better.

I want to reiterate that despite issues, this is a graphical update we want to happen, and of course we would like ongoing improvements and refinements because it's not perfect.

So thank you devs for doing this, and please pay attention to our feedback, regardless, know that upgrading the graphics to the game was the correct decision and of course its going to be a bumpy road, but outside the forums where we come to complain a lot of people are really excited and can't wait until dawntrail, so lets keep improving the character models and rest assured we are more excited than scared about the future.

I'm willing to compromise if a change is unavoidable due to technical changes that are just part and parcel of an engine change, say for example the way shadows might play on muscles or translucency of skin, assuming it looks right (not a wax doll, not like my character has a rare tropical disease) I can accept that. I'm not willing to compromise where the fundamental architecture of the shape of the character has been altered when it isn't necessary (cheekbones gone, eyelashes 5x as thick as they used to be, eye spacing or size altered).

[aemon_azucar]

The graphical update is meant as an upgrade. It is meant to improve on what we have already, not cause a downgrade for so many people and to make our characters unrecognizable. Right now, so many characters have a unique visual identity that makes them special. You can improve the graphics without taking that away.

Unless, of course, someone is attached specifically to some aspect of the graphics that is objectively of lower quality. Which is certainly a possibility. Graphical updates and improvements can remove something someone really liked, even if it was technically inferior display or presentation. E.g., I've seen folks annoyed about the "loss" of facial hair from the scruffy-hyur WoL-style face...except that that face was always meant to represent barely-there stubble, not full facial hair. The new graphics much more closely represent what the scruffy-faced WoL looks like in past trailer videos, but folks are upset because they had grown attached to the it-looks-like-full-facial-hair thing.

Sometimes, it is literally not possible to improve graphics and avoid upsetting someone. "They changed it, now it sucks" is a trope for a reason.

[Nebty]

The thing I'm most worried about is existing facial expressions being objectively altered for the worse because their new facial rigging ain't all there.



I'm not sure how anybody could see this as an improvement. They pinched up the sides of the mouth for no reason, and that affects every single facial expression in the game.

[Kindred008]

Unless, of course, someone is attached specifically to some aspect of the graphics that is objectively of lower quality. Which is certainly a possibility. Graphical updates and improvements can remove something someone really liked, even if it was technically inferior display or presentation. E.g., I've seen folks annoyed about the "loss" of facial hair from the scruffy-hyur WoL-style face...except that that face was always meant to represent barely-there stubble, not full facial hair. The new graphics much more closely represent what the scruffy-faced WoL looks like in past trailer videos, but folks are upset because they had grown attached to the it-looks-like-full-facial-hair thing.

Sometimes, it is literally not possible to improve graphics and avoid upsetting someone. "They changed it, now it sucks" is a trope for a reason.

I'd argue that if you can't upgrade the graphics without affecting the unique visual identity and style of characters that players have been attached to and playing for literal years, then you shouldn't be 'upgrading' the graphics in the first place.

Why can't it be a character option so people can keep the look they have always had? Have the 'objectively better' loss of facial hair as an option, and the 'objectively worse' scruffy look as an option so people can keep their same style if they want to. If anyone should be compromising, I believe it is the developers, whose goal should be to improve the graphics without completely changing how characters look.

[Fuyume]

Unfortunately, we're going to have some amount of "tragedy of the commons" on this one and I don't think that can be avoided. Because every person who isn't happy with the results has every reason to get hopping mad about the change and demand a fix for their specific issue. From their perspective, it's one relatively small change, perhaps a day of work, something that almost certainly could be squeezed in before launch. But say 20% of the active fanbase is upset. That's hundreds of thousands of people. Even if we assume that 99% of those claims are redundant, that's still thousands of "just a day or two" changes to be made. Meaning, it'd take thousands of days to implement them all, and that's definitely never going to happen.

And yet, for every person who wants a change and doesn't get one, what happens? They'll be upset. They'll feel resentful--and why shouldn't they? "Someone else got their changes, but I didn't!"

Thus, many, many, many people walk away feeling they've been ignored or even actively snubbed, despite the dev team doing everything they can. As you say, it might even be enough to convince them to just never bother with future graphic updates that affect player characters, thus dooming the 80% of satisfied customers (plus however many folks got their complaints addressed) to never get any further benefits. Because even when the vast majority of people are happy, and the vast majority of upset players get a fix for what bothers them, that can still leave thousands or even tens of thousands of people angry and motivated.

Even when you have 99% satisfaction, 1% of ~1M is still ~10k. Out of ten thousand unhappy customers, it's quite likely that a handful will be angry enough and motivated enough to kick up a fuss...or worse.

I get this if it's something like "I don't like the new lighting" or whatnot, there's not much that can be done without starting completely over. But what about faces that were totally changed? I fail to see what necessary upgrade it tied to give face four au ra dimples, a pouty lip, and a rounded chubby face when they had none of those things before. Why should every player of face 4 au ra be sacrificed on the altar of progress when they could have just not changed the lip and face shape. I've seen people make the existing faces high poly before without changing their shape, it is in fact possible.