We need to compromise as a player base

[Khiana]

Luckily I am more accepting of change as I have only been playing since Shadowbringers, but at the same time with how limited the character creator is anyway, I have an idea of my character in my head and that will not change even if the visual graphics do. I think some nitpicks i've seen are absolutely silly, and some are very justifiable, but demanding something regardless is not feedback nor is it constructive.
I am all go for the overall changes. I do feel some things need to be tweaked in places and the only things that bother me have been brought up by people plenty, but should they not be amended they will not hamper my enjoyment of the game. My imagination, albeit limited these days, has seen to that.

[Zeastria]

Most of us here are unhappy about the same things can see the same on JP forums:

-Skin
-Eyes
-Mouth
-Lips
-Eyebrows
-Facial hair
-Hair texture bugs
-Au'ra Scales
-Fangs
..ect

There is a reason for that:
Shaders and Textures are the main culprit here.
(has most "complaints" about).

They simply turn out worse for many races/genders,
Some of the changes(updates) look good on some, but not on others..
There is a huge difference on how dark/light colored skin, along with dark/light colored hair takes to the changes too.

Upgrade should be an upgrade, not a downgrade!..

[execlinca]

I'm happy with all the graphical updates they have showcased so far. But changing the design of the characters isn't what they promised.

Few examples of design changes:
- Dilated pupils on F Au Ra.
- Smaller pupils on Veena Viera.
- Fuller lips all across the board.
- Mid Hyur beards being less visible.
- Scars look like a hair strand.
- Removed static eye highlights.

These does not look like incidents or byproducts of the graphic updates. It looks like a person or a team with full conscious decided to change the design in the process of reworking the character 3D models.

I agree with the other changes, but removing static eye highlights was mentioned before on a panel, either a PLL or one of the fanfests, where they said there would be real lighting instead. I feel it perhaps needs to be intensified, to avoid the dead eyed look, but they never said they weren't removing static highlights.

Otherwise though, some things it does seem like they actively changed the vision of a race and I really feel for people going through that. Femra are really in shambles right now, especially with certain face types.

[Hejligan]

As I see it, there are three tiers of changes, which we can criticise with different force. There is a difference between systematic changes due to complex interaction of factors in graphics on the one hand, and specific changes to assets on the other.

In the first case, some of these things are very easy to identify, like the skin now looking "off" in many lighting conditions, or the fact that female Miqo'te lips just feel far too smudged and different now (which I am pretty sure is not an intentional change), which we should criticise rather openly.

But in some cases these changes will be very complex, due to so many factors interacting with each other that makes things look different, and those we should criticise less harshly, because they are not necessarily direct, intended changes that one can simple flip a switch at, but might be fundamentally tied to upgrades in the graphics themselves (all though still provide feedback).

But then there is a different category, the more specific and intentional changes to assets, like actually changing the models of eyelashes. The specific differences go against their stated philosophy about these changes, which was to essentially not change the basic look of characters. These things we can criticise rather more forcefully.

tl;dr

While it is true that not everything can be identical in such a massive graphical update, having (for example) different and massively thickened eyelashes isn't a necessary consequence of improved graphics, and we should criticise it. Having a consequence of graphical changes be that our characters look to be on the verge of passing out, due to how it makes our skin and eyes look, should be criticised too, because there are still limits to how different things are supposed to look.

[Kindred008]

The graphical update is meant as an upgrade. It is meant to improve on what we have already, not cause a downgrade for so many people and to make our characters unrecognizable. Right now, so many characters have a unique visual identity that makes them special. You can improve the graphics without taking that away.

[aemon_azucar]

The graphical update is meant as an upgrade. It is meant to improve on what we have already, not cause a downgrade for so many people and to make our characters unrecognizable. Right now, so many characters have a unique visual identity that makes them special. You can improve the graphics without taking that away.

Unless, of course, someone is attached specifically to some aspect of the graphics that is objectively of lower quality. Which is certainly a possibility. Graphical updates and improvements can remove something someone really liked, even if it was technically inferior display or presentation. E.g., I've seen folks annoyed about the "loss" of facial hair from the scruffy-hyur WoL-style face...except that that face was always meant to represent barely-there stubble, not full facial hair. The new graphics much more closely represent what the scruffy-faced WoL looks like in past trailer videos, but folks are upset because they had grown attached to the it-looks-like-full-facial-hair thing.

Sometimes, it is literally not possible to improve graphics and avoid upsetting someone. "They changed it, now it sucks" is a trope for a reason.

[Kindred008]

Unless, of course, someone is attached specifically to some aspect of the graphics that is objectively of lower quality. Which is certainly a possibility. Graphical updates and improvements can remove something someone really liked, even if it was technically inferior display or presentation. E.g., I've seen folks annoyed about the "loss" of facial hair from the scruffy-hyur WoL-style face...except that that face was always meant to represent barely-there stubble, not full facial hair. The new graphics much more closely represent what the scruffy-faced WoL looks like in past trailer videos, but folks are upset because they had grown attached to the it-looks-like-full-facial-hair thing.

Sometimes, it is literally not possible to improve graphics and avoid upsetting someone. "They changed it, now it sucks" is a trope for a reason.

I'd argue that if you can't upgrade the graphics without affecting the unique visual identity and style of characters that players have been attached to and playing for literal years, then you shouldn't be 'upgrading' the graphics in the first place.

Why can't it be a character option so people can keep the look they have always had? Have the 'objectively better' loss of facial hair as an option, and the 'objectively worse' scruffy look as an option so people can keep their same style if they want to. If anyone should be compromising, I believe it is the developers, whose goal should be to improve the graphics without completely changing how characters look.

[Taliriah]

I'd argue that if you can't upgrade the graphics without affecting the unique visual identity and style of characters that players have been attached to and playing for literal years, then you shouldn't be 'upgrading' the graphics in the first place.

Why can't it be a character option so people can keep the look they have always had? Have the 'objectively better' loss of facial hair as an option, and the 'objectively worse' scruffy look as an option so people can keep their same style if they want to. If anyone should be compromising, I believe it is the developers, whose goal should be to improve the graphics without completely changing how characters look.

1. Ask any digital artist and they'll tell you that everything is interdependent. If you improve the shading, then you have to re-rig the lights, because the old light rigs have been designed around the specific limitations and idiosyncrasies of the old shading. And color perception everywhere will be affected. That's just how it is. All the visual elements work together, you can't change one without affecting the others.

I'm not a video game artist but I work with them and I can't tell you how often they have looked at me in horror whenever I ask dumb programmer questions like "do you really need to be able to preview X and Y with the exact same time of day/weather used in the actual ingame event where it is used?"

(This is why, lacking any evidence that the character creation backdrops have been reworked, it is probably irrelevant to complain about the lighting there)

2. In general, a graphic update consists in adding more information to shapes and textures to define them better. The thing is, when that extra information was missing, people were filling in the blanks, and they were doing that subjectively. That bit you perceive as integral to your character's look may be perceived as an ugly artifact by someone else.

Therefore there is no objective way to fill in the missing information.

Making old and new versions coexist as an option is also impossible, see point 1: the lighting and weather have to match with the character shading.

So, in light of this, should they not have done this? Hell no. There's a million things that look wrong in 6.0 and I don't think the game should be held back by conservatism. And since it's all so subjective, it means you'll get used to it anyway.

TL;DR: you'll get over it.

[Evergrey]

TL;DR: you'll get over it.

In the end, this is inevitable.
I've seen this countless times with any change, you name it.
People complain that X isn't the same and Y is worse than Z.
But after weeks, months it's like nothing's happened since people adapt and learn to use the new features and it'll blend into what's now normal.
Ofc, some are more stubborn than others and there will always be those who feel "betrayed" and will leave to find new horizons. And that's totally fine.
If the new stuff doesn't suit them it's better to just find something else that does.
Still sucks that sometimes something one has spend x amount of time on suddenly doesn't feel good anymore.
In the end however, life is all about change and some changes sting more than others.

That being said, this is a Benchmark, not a final product and as people voice their concerns over things we'll see whatever happens from that.
Some issues will certainly get adressed while others might not be.

[Kindred008]

1. Ask any digital artist and they'll tell you that everything is interdependent. If you improve the shading, then you have to re-rig the lights, because the old light rigs have been designed around the specific limitations and idiosyncrasies of the old shading. And color perception everywhere will be affected. That's just how it is. All the visual elements work together, you can't change one without affecting the others.

I'm not a video game artist but I work with them and I can't tell you how often they have looked at me in horror whenever I ask dumb programmer questions like "do you really need to be able to preview X and Y with the exact same time of day/weather used in the actual ingame event where it is used?"

(This is why, lacking any evidence that the character creation backdrops have been reworked, it is probably irrelevant to complain about the lighting there)

2. In general, a graphic update consists in adding more information to shapes and textures to define them better. The thing is, when that extra information was missing, people were filling in the blanks, and they were doing that subjectively. That bit you perceive as integral to your character's look may be perceived as an ugly artifact by someone else.

Therefore there is no objective way to fill in the missing information.

Making old and new versions coexist as an option is also impossible, see point 1: the lighting and weather have to match with the character shading.

So, in light of this, should they not have done this? Hell no. There's a million things that look wrong in 6.0 and I don't think the game should be held back by conservatism. And since it's all so subjective, it means you'll get used to it anyway.

TL;DR: you'll get over it.

It is completely untrue that in-order to improve graphics, characters have to look unrecognisable.

This isn't an issue with lighting. Sure, it may have to be re-baked, but characters look completely different because in many cases their facial structure and features have been changed.

There have been so many video game remasters in the past where the graphics have been vastly improved, but characters have still looked like themselves, just an improved version of themselves. You can't tell me that for some reason that isn't possible in this case.