Bring positive RNG

[Valence]

Fair enough for fang and claw / wheeling. I expected that kind of reply, and it didn't disappoint. Guess you can keep your uninteresting combos on melees...

For example, does randomizing whether I should press 1-2-3-4-5 versus 1-2-3-5-4 actually result in a more enjoyable play experience?

That's a false shortcut to diminish proc systems on the base combo like this I feel. Your rng pattern will never be 1-2-3-5-4, the whole point is that it changes and isn't deterministic. And rng proc combos are literally the base level of rng design, there is a lot more one can do with it, and if the point of the OP seemed to be about making everything being a proc combo, then I apologize because that was definitely not the intent.

Personally, I hold up Thunder procs as one of the best uses of RNG, but I think it's so important to understand the context it exists in, because that's the reason it works so well! BLM is constantly juggling multiple timers to keep their plates spinning, and to do this they need to make sure they cast certain spells within certain windows. Cast too late and your plate falls on the floor, cast too early and you're losing some of your potential damage output. Because of this, BLM needs to actually consider and react to enemy behavior when determining what they will cast and when, because their cast times means they can't just change tactics on a dime without making sacrifices.

Yeah in theory, until the past couple of expansions where the job is literally spamming sharpcast to make it matter very little those days. I do agree that it's cool though, and that's why I still listed it.

I initially started writing this to hold up how Thunder does RNG right, and how that implementation probably has something good to learn that we could apply to other classes when using RNG. But in writing this, I think I've come to a different conclusion. Because RNG in and of itself doesn't make Thunder fun; rather, it's the potential for failure that makes RNG fun. If BLM couldn't drop those plates, then Thunder would just be a spell that periodically inserted itself into your rotation...and that's not very compelling. But since BLM can drop their plates, Thunder allows them to take a risk that will give them more damage if they succeed...with the potential outcome that the BLM bites off more than they can chew and all those plates come tumbling down.

So my updated response is this: we shouldn't be adding RNG to classes, we should be adding opportunities for failure into rotations in the form of risk/reward mechanics. Maybe those will have RNG, but maybe they won't. I'd hazard there are a lot of different ways to do that.

The slow removal of failure in most of the battlesystem is definitely a problem. If you think that failing a proc combo is not failure, then what is it? Juggling rng procs is also a form of skill check. And if said procs can be used for different purposes, then even better (it can be mobility like Thundercloud, and it can be other things like fitting them into specific sequences, getting as many possible up for a burst, etc).

Stuff like redmage's procs make me feel absolutely nothing. Dancer becomes a lot less fun if you dont get feathers left and right.

Red Mage procs are utterly boring and superficial, unlike old mch procs they take from.

[ZiraZ]

Fair enough for fang and claw / wheeling. I expected that kind of reply, and it didn't disappoint. Guess you can keep your uninteresting combos on melees...

They are interesting enough already for DRG, I don't see any reason to change them, the problem is the boss fights that are huge boring walls, but go do P11S on DRG and imagine what would happen if you had to account for rng and a highly spinny boss while being incapable to map pre-positioning/true north usage. It would just piss you off.

[Valence]

Another not combat oriented form of RNG: extreme trial mounts

That they are random is perfectly fine, because totems are the alternative way to safeguard the ones which had bad rng. But it shouldnt take months. Some delay is fine to make the RNG reward more special when obtaining it early. But when you are already waiting 6+ months before you can use the totems, it feels needlessly long to wait for something you eventualy should get anyway. Its like the game punishes you for not trying to go further, instead of rewarding dedication, and this feels like a very negative thing (especialy when you collected all mounts already but lack the newest one even after obtaining 300+ totems). Its not rewarding dedication, its punishing it (since when it finaly does get released, those 200 extra totems will be completely worthless.

This is where i think it would be better if they changed the system a little:
Upon release up to a month: 2 totem per kill, not purchasable mount yet
After 1 month up to 3 months: mount becomes purchasable at 200 totems (your early grind that you took to the extreme can now be rewarded)
After 3 months: grant 3 totems per kill, reduce cost to 150 (speeds up the process a bit compensating for reduced attention)
Next patch release (or if extended duration between patch): reduce cost to 100 totems

As a bonus, i would even (if no other item drop is given) add a bonus totem that you can roll on, giving a bit more sense of progress and rewarding sense of RNG (could even drop 2 of these, but restrict it to only 1 totem per player per run). This will also benefit older extremes as now with faster completions, it does still generate a bit more totems (and those who got the mount generaly wont roll for these - and even if they do, so be it)

The 2 totems reward and its 50 required wins are no problem for anyone that is willing to farm now. This can be gotten in a month easily. If it becomes purchasable faster, going for more totems can get those players to continue longer (but they dont have to, as they know the price will eventualy drop). Make it feel rewarding to take the extra step, or make the wait feel rewarding. Now it doesnt do both and its just an anoying taunt in your inventory/chocobo/retainer.

I don't think mount drop RNG is anywhere close to interesting RNG. It's just frustrating and nothing else. 99 totems to make up for it is just silly. I ain't gonna farm something 99 times. But I'm gonna get accused by people that like farming that I'm not the main audience of that mechanic so... idk.

That's your personal opinion. Haven't you said before that you're not interested in melee or positionals? Weird then that you'd call them uninteresting just because they're so for you.

Asking about randomness in FnC/WT specifically simply tells me you don't play the job. They're the worst actions to do that on.

They're uninteresting for me and I never claimed otherwise. I apologize if the reply read a bit salty, because sometimes I'm actually interested in melees, but some fundamentally different tastes and expectations like that remind me why I stay away from them beyond leveling. And as usual, if that's what melee mains want out of their melees, then I'll politely bow out and let them have it.

Just to add to the DRG Fang and Claw/Wheeling Thrust discussion, when they were RNG in HW, many Dragoons didn't like it, especially when we were talking about extreme/savage fights. The main reason? You couldn't properly plan what you had to do. With only 2.5 seconds to see which one you had to use, then position properly, it just wasn't enough time, especially when you take into account boss movement along with other job mechanics. I'm pretty sure the reason it was changed in SB to guaranteed combos is because of the general dislike of the RNG.

They are interesting enough already for DRG, I don't see any reason to change them, the problem is the boss fights that are huge boring walls, but go do P11S on DRG and imagine what would happen if you had to account for rng and a highly spinny boss while being incapable to map pre-positioning/true north usage. It would just piss you off.

I do agree when combined with positionals, it's obnoxious. That's why I'd have felt more natural to have positionals on the fixed segments of the combo, and no positionals on the rng segments of it, but well.

[UkcsAlias]

I don't think mount drop RNG is anywhere close to interesting RNG. It's just frustrating and nothing else. 99 totems to make up for it is just silly. I ain't gonna farm something 99 times. But I'm gonna get accused by people that like farming that I'm not the main audience of that mechanic so... idk.

Its not interesting RNG, but its still relevant RNG.

Combat rng when it triggers is supposed to make a player happy, the same idea still happens with rewards. And in most cases with rewards it does this fine (yes, you might miss out all rewards due to only getting greed options). It feels in most cases fair. And when a mount drops directly from a trial, it feels fair when you lose it.

But this is where it ends. As its not just extreme trial rewards, its also for alliance raid outfits. These can have horrible rng and often involve quite a bit of time. If RNG isnt in your favor here, there is nothing you can do. At least for the extreme mounts the totems will eventualy give the rewards, but for alliance raids, you can realy only do the raid. Which with its waiting time is an even bigger grind than the extreme.

This is why i think harder to obtain rewards should involve a reliable fallback that doesnt involve excessive waits. The excessive wait is after all only feeling as a punishment since you already had back luck in the first place (as that pushed you into the grind).

[Gemina]

Really? I play rng jobs all the time and I don't see the problem at all. The thing with rng procs and similar mechanics is that as long as they are on a high sample amount during a whole fight the rng result on the final damage tends to drown a little into said sample.

Ranged jobs don't have to worry about positional attacks. I believe that's what everyone is trying to get you to understand. For EX encounters (especially with echo) and below, melee jobs can pretty much ignore positionals unless they are min/maxing, but for more difficult encounters the potency losses on missed positional attacks are going to add up very quickly to the overall raid damage. Especially for DRG.

Jobs like BRD, DNC, and even BLM to a certain extent are pretty heavily based on RNG. Enough to the point where poor/great RNG can affect the overall performance of someone who is really putting in an effort play effectively. Even if you are not a serious PvE player, you can do something like expert crafting or big game fishing to see how RNG can make or break even a player who knows full well what they are doing and puts in a ton of effort towards their stats to "hopefully" swing RNG in their favor.

I don't think mount drop RNG is anywhere close to interesting RNG. It's just frustrating and nothing else. 99 totems to make up for it is just silly. I ain't gonna farm something 99 times. But I'm gonna get accused by people that like farming that I'm not the main audience of that mechanic so... idk.

It's not supposed to be interesting. It's supposed to be frustrating. Could you imagine how quickly this content would die out if mounts were handed out like candy? The RNG and totem system is designed specifically to give the content longevity. It gives the players who choose to participate in the fights later in the patch a fair chance to get their clears. The fights also drop weapon coffers, weapons, sheet music, and a crafting mat. You can desynth the weapons for an additional chance at obtaining the crafting mat. Some of these items are also marketable and fetch a good amount of gil for them if increasing this number is something you place importance on.

There really is no such thing as positive/negative RNG when what determines if it is positive or negative rests solely on the outcome.

[Valence]

Have you done TOP or any crit as melee?
Very relevant to the topic of rng, I don't think you would've ever suggested that fang & claw and wheeling thrust rng thing if you've done fights like top p1 and p3 or any crit. and yes mechanics can absolutely can have small changes in the way you map true north and the way you "maneuver" a mechanic to squeeze positionals, specially when you are being risky.
I know the same is true for casters(real casters) and healers, I suppose the game is currently very different for range phys(and smn).

No, TOP is one ultimate I haven't done. I suggested that wheeling and fang thing without the positionals in mind, which is true, and I probably deserved the memes on first page, but as I said, you could perfectly move the positionals out of those and give them to the fixed sections of the combos. Either way, I'm not gonna die on that hill, and certainly not for melee jobs. As I've said, fair enough. Makes me even less willing to play melee, but that's not what I main, and if you enjoy deterministic stuff, then that's great for you. As stated in the OP, I'm mostly giving feedback about my own tastes.

Still amused that people are literally fixated to that detail though.

Ranged jobs don't have to worry about positional attacks. I believe that's what everyone is trying to get you to understand. For EX encounters (especially with echo) and below, melee jobs can pretty much ignore positionals unless they are min/maxing, but for more difficult encounters the potency losses on missed positional attacks are going to add up very quickly to the overall raid damage. Especially for DRG.

Wow, wow, slow down. I've never said anywhere that melees should ignore their positionals, even if positionals those days are very close to this already for 95% of the content anyway.

Jobs like BRD, DNC, and even BLM to a certain extent are pretty heavily based on RNG.

Come on, I can buy this for BRD and perhaps DNC/RDM (which aren't full rng jobs), but BLM? rng and proc jobs are an endangered species.

Also question: if melees aren't allowed rng on some of them, then why do I have to eat fixed bland combos on MCH?

Enough to the point where poor/great RNG can affect the overall performance of someone who is really putting in an effort play effectively. Even if you are not a serious PvE player, you can do something like expert crafting or big game fishing to see how RNG can make or break even a player who knows full well what they are doing and puts in a ton of effort towards their stats to "hopefully" swing RNG in their favor.

Are you really comparing expert recipes and fishing to pve proc jobs?

People thinking that good or bad rng actually murders pve performance are being pretty delusional, cf my post higher. The biggest variance culprit is dh crit on low samples and nukes. Procs do not happen on those.

[Aco505]

Fair enough for fang and claw / wheeling. I expected that kind of reply, and it didn't disappoint. Guess you can keep your uninteresting combos on melees...

That's your personal opinion. Haven't you said before that you're not interested in melee or positionals? Weird then that you'd call them uninteresting just because they're so for you.

Asking about randomness in FnC/WT specifically simply tells me you don't play the job. They're the worst actions to do that on.