Do you know why the average pf player is so bad?

[sindriiisgaming]

PF players are the way they are because they are casual players that didn't gear up yet (they are either in crafted gear or lower, often lower), they don't use food and pots, they don't understand snapshotting properly so they think the game has lag issues, they don't use legacy movement so they find the game infinitely harder

Never understand this.. I don't play in legacy and its never been a hindrance to me lol

[Jeeqbit]

Never understand this.. I don't play in legacy and its never been a hindrance to me lol

It's a hindrance, because in standard you have to slowly turn your player around with the mouse, which takes about 1 second. Then you can start running forwards out of the aoe. By the time you have done that, it has been 2 seconds. Casts are typically 3 seconds, and some of that is taken up by ping, so you are just barely avoiding it.

In contrast, while in legacy, you just press "S" to run out of the aoe. You can do it one-handed in 1 second. Because you have 2 seconds left, you can delay it for uptime and move out at the last moment.

It makes the game significantly easier on a keyboard/mouse. A large part of the difficulty for most keyboard/mouse players is created by being in standard mode tbh.

There are some people that find standard better but they seem like a minority, because anyone I teach about legacy usually finds it transformative to their gameplay.

[Merrigan]

It's a hindrance, because in standard you have to slowly turn your player around with the mouse, which takes about 1 second. Then you can start running forwards out of the aoe. By the time you have done that, it has been 2 seconds. Casts are typically 3 seconds, and some of that is taken up by ping, so you are just barely avoiding it.

In contrast, while in legacy, you just press "S" to run out of the aoe. You can do it one-handed in 1 second. Because you have 2 seconds left, you can delay it for uptime and move out at the last moment.

It makes the game significantly easier on a keyboard/mouse. A large part of the difficulty for most keyboard/mouse players is created by being in standard mode tbh.

There are some people that find standard better but they seem like a minority, because anyone I teach about legacy usually finds it transformative to their gameplay.

What is "legacy movement" ? 5 years in the game, and I never heard of that x)

[Jeeqbit]

What is "legacy movement" ? 5 years in the game, and I never heard of that x)

It's exactly what I described. With standard movement, the direction of your character is tied to the camera, so mouse movement controls the direction your character faces and therefore you have to move the mouse or slowly turn around, before you can begin running out of an AoE.

With legacy movement, the direction of your character is not tied to the camera, so if you press backwards, instead of slowly walking back, your character immediately turns around and runs out of the AoE. It makes the game significantly easier. It's such an advantage that it trivializes mechanics compared to standard.

I was helping some people with P10S recently and saw a few of them were struggling to avoid the chains and getting Doom. We explained about legacy and it transformed the game for them. Just an example.

(It's in Character Configuration, under Control Settings and General. I personally disable auto-fly/auto-dive)

[Kacho_Nacho]

One reason might be because they're handicapped. Like me with two bad hands and bad hearing. They also might be new and their first time doing the duty. I have seen bots in my party from duty finder. Get a bot tank or healer and the party will be very bad.

Being handicapped definitely affects my game play. I even had the tank ask if I was trolling in a recent raid. (It was the one where you fight Nophica and some of the other Twelve).

I told him truthly I wasn't. "I'm just really bad at that particular raid."

It 100% comes down to the fact I am fighting my body and mind to react to mechanics and that doesn't give me much time to react to things. Usually, I just avoid those types of duties/raids but sometimes you just have to take what the roulette gives you.

But... I still try to be a good player by learning my rotations, reading tooltips, and watching videos.

It's exactly what I described. With standard movement, the direction of your character is tied to the camera, so mouse movement controls the direction your character faces and therefore you have to move the mouse or slowly turn around, before you can begin running out of an AoE.

With legacy movement, the direction of your character is not tied to the camera, so if you press backwards, instead of slowly walking back, your character immediately turns around and runs out of the AoE. It makes the game significantly easier. It's such an advantage that it trivializes mechanics compared to standard.

I was helping some people with P10S recently and saw a few of them were struggling to avoid the chains and getting Doom. We explained about legacy and it transformed the game for them. Just an example.

(It's in Character Configuration, under Control Settings and General. I personally disable auto-fly/auto-dive)

Thanks for the tip! It sounds like something I need to try.

[Nadda]

Being handicapped definitely affects my game play. I even had the tank ask if I was trolling in a recent raid. (It was the one where you fight Nophica and some of the other Twelve).

I'm completely tolerant if someone is handicapped long as they say they are at the start.
I remember one time waiting on a main tank in Praetorium of all things - it was right before you get to ride the magitech war mecha - I can't remember the particulars but they needed to replace some tube thing that was attached to their body.
I was like sure and waited and so did everyone else.

I'm not sure how niche the handicapped audience is but that's not particularly what I reckon most of us are covering.
Even then if it's somebodies first time or they don't get something - I'll always be patient and ride it through.
If you don't give up I won't give up.

The issue we're talking about has more to do with other people who face a skill wall and quit because the game hasn't taught them well

[Jeeqbit]

It 100% comes down to the fact I am fighting my body and mind to react to mechanics and that doesn't give me much time to react to things. Usually, I just avoid those types of duties/raids but sometimes you just have to take what the roulette gives you.

Being a tank can be useful if you are handicapped, because tanks can survive mechanics that other players can't. They can usually just rack up at least 4 vuln stacks without any problem. Whereas other roles will die to those mechanics. Of course, the tanks should do mechanics, but frankly they are fine if they don't a lot of the time.

I'm not sure how niche the handicapped audience is

It's not as niche as you think. In fact, most people (at least older people) probably have one. It's just not necessarily severe enough that it affects them in a noticeable way. For example, they might be color blind or get pain in their hand or arm from playing too long or suffer from an injury, while for others it's more severe like limited hand movement, not being able to keep their hands still, only having one arm, or memory disabilities.

[Kacho_Nacho]

Being a tank can be useful if you are handicapped, because tanks can survive mechanics that other players can't. They can usually just rack up at least 4 vuln stacks without any problem. Whereas other roles will die to those mechanics. Of course, the tanks should do mechanics, but frankly they are fine if they don't a lot of the time.

That thought has already crossed my mind. I'm already planning for Dawntrail to be my tanking and painting expansion. LOL

It's not as niche as you think. In fact, most people (at least older people) probably have one. It's just not necessarily severe enough that it affects them in a noticeable way. For example, they might be color blind or get pain in their hand or arm from playing too long or suffer from an injury, while for others it's more severe like limited hand movement, not being able to keep their hands still, only having one arm, or memory disabilities.

Exactly. There are a lot of us disabled players in FFXIV.

Think about it for one second.

Individuals who are disabled are often stuck at home. They want to interact with people. So, they join MMOs like FFXIV to have that social interaction and also the opportunity to do something enjoyable.

Unfortunately, they sometimes struggle with things other players do with ease. This causes frustration on both sides.

But, I do think there is a lot of middle ground. It's just that, well, people are taking extreme positions on the issue of how challenging the game should be and how well should your average player be. It's the old Casuals versus Raiders dynamic.

Thoughts:

FFXIV does need another overhaul to adjust the slope of difficulty. There should be a smooth curve in the challenge of the content with each duty/raid preparing you for the next step.

There should also be better education within the game to teach individuals how to play. For example, the Training Grounds could be expanded to prepare players for the mechanics they will be facing soon and their telegraphs.

Have it be required content for levels 15, 30, 50, 60, 70, 80, and 90 with the reward being a certificate required to get into the appropriate duties and raids. It's similar to the idea of having gear level requirements but relies more on the player's effort to learn rather than their luck with gear drops or skill at making gil.

Just my 2¢s...

[Merrigan]

It's exactly what I described. With standard movement, the direction of your character is tied to the camera, so mouse movement controls the direction your character faces and therefore you have to move the mouse or slowly turn around, before you can begin running out of an AoE.

With legacy movement, the direction of your character is not tied to the camera, so if you press backwards, instead of slowly walking back, your character immediately turns around and runs out of the AoE. It makes the game significantly easier. It's such an advantage that it trivializes mechanics compared to standard.

I was helping some people with P10S recently and saw a few of them were struggling to avoid the chains and getting Doom. We explained about legacy and it transformed the game for them. Just an example.

(It's in Character Configuration, under Control Settings and General. I personally disable auto-fly/auto-dive)

But does it affect your dps? I mean, as a melee there are plenty of moments where you can get out while sticking to the mob; using movement as you describe it is a dead loss, compared to using the mouse (which I always keep down anyway, personally)?

And turning your character completely, if you need to get away from something very quickly, doesn't take "a second". It's immediate with camera movement + straff to the side.

... I swear, I'm not trying to be sarcastic, it's just that I don't understand the point of losing such a practical bind as the "s" (= backward on my keyboard) when you can simply hold down the right mouse button at any time to have better control .

[Jeeqbit]

But does it affect your dps?

If you die to a mechanic or get a damage down due to struggling to avoid mechanics, yes! Also means you can greed for longer because it takes less time to navigate out of an AoE.

I mean, as a melee there are plenty of moments where you can get out while sticking to the mob; using movement as you describe it is a dead loss, compared to using the mouse (which I always keep down anyway, personally)?

I don't personally agree. I used to do Savage in Heavensward with standard and I could do all the mechanics, but I was just barely achieving them all and it was very last moment stuff, very tense. It's comparatively braindead with legacy and not really tense at all.

And turning your character completely, if you need to get away from something very quickly, doesn't take "a second". It's immediate with camera movement + straff to the side.

Well it's good you found a workaround. Like I said, some people prefer it or find a way to make it work.