XIV EW Job-Gameplay is Terrible... Why?

[strawberrycake]

At this point it's clear that yoshi wants the game to be super easy to pick up and put down on any class. Lotro is a really old game but has a strong fanbase who doesn't mind learning how to play. For a game like ffxiv that is trying to be mainstream and accessible on console, the goal is to have anyone with a pulse be able to play.
FFXIV combat and content design, is braindead at it's core. Condensing some classes combo is not really the problem, the expert roulette will still be a faceroll

Again, I'm not gonna advocate for making an already bad situation worse, if you wanna use XIV combo, you go ahead, but that tool should stay a tool, and of a consolidated combo button makes it out of PvP, it should only be an opt in feature.

Instead of trying to put more band-aids on the situation, we need to be pushing Yoshida and the Devs to be better about how they balance their game, because theres a difference between a game being easy on the surface for people who don't wanna be that involved and depth for the rest, and a game thats just overtly braindead.

I for one would like to see XIV return to form for the sake of those of us who have been here from the start and supoorted it through worse. You're free to disagree tho.

[Oizen]

This game had a distinctive class gameplay. It has been steadily stripped out. If we were at HW or SB i would say absolutely play this game and the class gameplay feels fantastic. Now it's a shadow of what it was..

I agree? That flare you're talking about this game having doesn't exist. It was removed ages ago. I just don't really view a combo button as something that harms the game.
Everything you didn't want to happen already happened. All of that flare the game used to has been removed. I'd love to see it come back.
I'm just saying that if the only thing you can point to for this game's complexity is pressing 1 2 3 in sequence for 2 minutes, then barfing out all the resources you spent, then going back to pressing 1-2-3 for 2 more minutes then I'm just not really seeing it.

Hmmm, bit skewed to say simple controls are better when it has complex mechanics. Cause you can't apply this to XIV, that leaves literally 95% of all content in the dust... So you might as well Quote Yoshi-P and say " Just go play Ultimate ". And by your logic...Tic-Tac-Toe is a better game then Chess even though I know this is a skewed comparison.

Well no, actually. FFXIV already has simple controls and simple mechanics. I don't feel like the job design really tests anything about how you play, nor do I think they even differentiate the feeling between jobs at all anymore.
For your comparison, FFXIV in its current state is no chess. The complexity you want from this game just doesn't exist anymore.

The current difficulty of the game basically comes from the developers trying to obfuscate mechanics behind debuff-soup and big flashy effects hiding the fact that almost everything is just spread/stack/gaze, I'm gonna be honest the current game feels far more like a bullet hell than it does some combo-rotation based battle system.

And it seems to me the Developers like this direction so I'm expecting to see it doubled down on. As a result I think a combo button is way more in line with FFXIV's psudeo-bullet hell gameplay.

Apparently advocating for better is somehow Taboo. We want mediocrity. Promote it. Why play XIV? for everything but it's Job-Gameplay as you yourself put it. Why not make it also cause of Job-Gameplay... what's the negative of doing so?

Oh I'd love that. I can't get excited for PCT or VPR because I already know exactly how they're going to play, injecting some love into the jobs and giving them real identities again would be great.
But I don't think its going to happen.

Elden Ring and the Entire Soulsborne series would like to have words with you.

Both of those games are incredibly simple from a control standpoint? I don't see how that contradicts anything I've said.
They get complexity from Boss patterns, different weapon types, custom builds, ect. not from pressing 123 for 10 minutes.

[AmiableApkallu]

At one point certain fights had a negative impact if you pushed your parties DPS too high, you can see some small mechanics still used today as in if you kill too many smaller enemies they explode and you get AoE damage and potentially wipe the party. That no longer became a DPS mechanic, rather it became a heal check. If I remember correctly they don't really limit DPS anymore because "it felt bad".

There's a big difference between "please don't play your best" and "please be tactical about where you direct your damage."

Arbitrarily holding yourself back feels bad; letting loose but having to be intelligent about your choice of target(s) could be fun an interesting.

[Silverquick]

It's one thing to streamline... its another thing to OVERSIMPLIFY...

Oversimplification can lead to tediousness, which I think is what we're getting to. And the more complicated something is the more strategic it also becomes. While I certainly understand the previous 30+ button rotations may have been a little bit much... going back down to a 1-2 button rotation is a bit too much.

That is Overkill... and unnecessary and in the end creates just as many problems as it solves. I get trying to make things a little easier... but this... this is off the deep end on the other side of the pool and is the same problem as was there before, plus removes any and all strategic or tactical approaches and also removes the uniqueness in the individual jobs.

Overcompensation never solves anything, it only makes it worse.

[NYCLouisGamer]

paper tanks and healslut healers

That would be wonderful! Add to that a mechanic where healers can choose to do a complicated rotation to gain more heals once they go OOM... and we have liftoff!

This insane insistence on SE making all jobs able to solo all content is killing a great game.

[Supersnow845]

That would be wonderful! Add to that a mechanic where healers can choose to do a complicated rotation to gain more heals once they go OOM... and we have liftoff!

This insane insistence on SE making all jobs able to solo all content is killing a great game.

I mean if we adhered to a “classic trinity” design then thematically the WOL couldn’t be a healer or tank which would ruin the entire MSQ

[strawberrycake]

Both of those games are incredibly simple from a control standpoint? I don't see how that contradicts anything I've said.
They get complexity from Boss patterns, different weapon types, custom builds, ect. not from pressing 123 for 10 minutes.

You made the generalization that no one likes games for their control complexity, for a lot of people playing games, soulsborne games are very complex given how many keys they use and how much fromsoftware deviates from the norm of other fantasy games like Elder Scrolls or Dragon Age which use homogeneous control schemes for the sake of easy pick up and playing.

Now if you wanna talk about MMOs, it's already been said that the reason why we press each button of our combos is due to it being a skill to do so. To always be casting in this game is something so many of you already struggle with, let alone thinking about mit, healing, and self buffs, so dumbing things down on the actual controls won't help. So let's hypothetically say we do adopt the consolidated button for combos, like always an optimal way to play each job will come out, the raiders who are naturally inclined to learn their jobs will figure it all out naturally, and the rest of you will still die to adds in sastash hard mode.

This isn't me even being malicious or mean, it's just fact, even with simplified controls I wouldn't trust half this player base with keeping themselves alive, let alone performing with new controls to learn. The problem here is this request is selfish and so not in favor of making things better, you don't make a good/smart worker, student, or person in general by lowering things lower then the bare minimum, you hold them to a standard. it's been proven time and time again.

The moment you all stop feeding into Yoshi P making this game the black sheep of MMOs is the moment things will stop being so asinine. A consolidated combo button is great for people with disabilities, and would only ever serve as an opt in feature for those too lazy to learn how to play in an already simple game. Because low and behold this was being begged for since it was first introduced and Yoshida said it being taken out of PvP was an ass idea then.

So the answer is go play actual content, the little bit thats hard, when its actually relevant and maybe you'll see why pressing those buttons are hard, and why it sucks so much ass in other content.

[NYCLouisGamer]

I mean if we adhered to a “classic trinity” design then thematically the WOL couldn’t be a healer or tank which would ruin the entire MSQ

But virtually all other MMO games also have your main character as the "hero", regardless of role. Yet, they still are able to keep the classic trinity design. The fact that a Warrior can heal at all (outside of potions) screams single-player.

[AmiableApkallu]

The fact that a Warrior can heal at all (outside of potions) screams single-player.

The MSQ is basically single-player.

It would be interesting to see MSQ solo duties reworked to take into account your current job. I want to say that there are at least a few of them that have enough action going on that you could be slotted in as a tank, healer, or DPS, rather than being treated as a generic omni-role.

[strawberrycake]

But virtually all other MMO games also have your main character as the "hero", regardless of role. Yet, they still are able to keep the classic trinity design. The fact that a Warrior can heal at all (outside of potions) screams single-player.

I disagree on the healing thing, again XIV being the black sheep, all the jobs have self healing, and it's great in harder content, but it stems from when WoW was introducing it back in MoP as a mainstay for classes since open world content actually exists there and was needed for squishier classes to quest alone if friends weren't on or they were a solo'er.

A lot of features in XIV that feel single player stem from systems that were put in the game for the sake of open world content not being so overtly difficult in other MMO as a whole really.