XIV EW Job-Gameplay is Terrible... Why?

[AmiableApkallu]

The fact that a Warrior can heal at all (outside of potions) screams single-player.

The MSQ is basically single-player.

It would be interesting to see MSQ solo duties reworked to take into account your current job. I want to say that there are at least a few of them that have enough action going on that you could be slotted in as a tank, healer, or DPS, rather than being treated as a generic omni-role.

[strawberrycake]

But virtually all other MMO games also have your main character as the "hero", regardless of role. Yet, they still are able to keep the classic trinity design. The fact that a Warrior can heal at all (outside of potions) screams single-player.

I disagree on the healing thing, again XIV being the black sheep, all the jobs have self healing, and it's great in harder content, but it stems from when WoW was introducing it back in MoP as a mainstay for classes since open world content actually exists there and was needed for squishier classes to quest alone if friends weren't on or they were a solo'er.

A lot of features in XIV that feel single player stem from systems that were put in the game for the sake of open world content not being so overtly difficult in other MMO as a whole really.

[Supersnow845]

But virtually all other MMO games also have your main character as the "hero", regardless of role. Yet, they still are able to keep the classic trinity design. The fact that a Warrior can heal at all (outside of potions) screams single-player.

Almost no other MMO puts you as this singularly powerful almost demigod like being in the eyes of the world around you, sure you are that powerful in most MMO’s but taking WOW for example WOW’s story functionally makes full sense if every expansion was completed by a different adventurer, there is no connecting thread of the warrior of light/hero of eorzea etc as this super powerful being that can functionally do anything

That whole fantasy falls apart if the WOL is an enforced sylphie by class design

[Colt47]

If they want to make the jobs play better then they have to stop making raw damage output as the most efficient way to clear fights and challenges. It really comes down to that because otherwise they will constantly be trapped in a feedback loop where people will keep obsessing over simplifying and streamlining for easier DPS rotations, while minimizing the utility skills down into patterns. That's why they ended up having a 2 minute window: So people had an easier time maxing their damage output to efficiently clear fights.

For example, what if there was a fight where if you dps the boss down too fast a more powerful one ends up appearing, and the goal is to move objects from one side of the arena to the other?

At that point snares become more important than damage output, so people no longer care about the DPS they are doing: The most efficient way to clear is to snare and hold the existing boss while dealing with the primary objective.

[Niroken]

If they want to make the jobs play better then they have to stop making raw damage output as the most efficient way to clear fights and challenges. It really comes down to that because otherwise they will constantly be trapped in a feedback loop where people will keep obsessing over simplifying and streamlining for easier DPS rotations, while minimizing the utility skills down into patterns. That's why they ended up having a 2 minute window: So people had an easier time maxing their damage output to efficiently clear fights.

For example, what if there was a fight where if you dps the boss down too fast a more powerful one ends up appearing, and the goal is to move objects from one side of the arena to the other?

At that point snares become more important than damage output, so people no longer care about the DPS they are doing: The most efficient way to clear is to snare and hold the existing boss while dealing with the primary objective.

At one point certain fights had a negative impact if you pushed your parties DPS too high, you can see some small mechanics still used today as in if you kill too many smaller enemies they explode and you get AoE damage and potentially wipe the party. That no longer became a DPS mechanic, rather it became a heal check. If I remember correctly they don't really limit DPS anymore because "it felt bad".

[Colt47]

At one point certain fights had a negative impact if you pushed your parties DPS too high, you can see some small mechanics still used today as in if you kill too many smaller enemies they explode and you get AoE damage and potentially wipe the party. That no longer became a DPS mechanic, rather it became a heal check. If I remember correctly they don't really limit DPS anymore because "it felt bad".

Of course it feels bad the majority of people are so used to DPS = Good they feel like they are getting slapped in the face. And that is because of lazy game design from other MMOs that this one took inspiration from. If they don't put in things that force some kind of limit to the damage in a fight the red jobs just become a giant molase of the same thing.

[AmiableApkallu]

At one point certain fights had a negative impact if you pushed your parties DPS too high, you can see some small mechanics still used today as in if you kill too many smaller enemies they explode and you get AoE damage and potentially wipe the party. That no longer became a DPS mechanic, rather it became a heal check. If I remember correctly they don't really limit DPS anymore because "it felt bad".

There's a big difference between "please don't play your best" and "please be tactical about where you direct your damage."

Arbitrarily holding yourself back feels bad; letting loose but having to be intelligent about your choice of target(s) could be fun an interesting.

[Supersnow845]

I don’t mind holding DPS for a more favourable combo but pushing with DPS runs the risk of bringing back something in the realm of T7 and that fight should never be repeated

[Silverquick]

It's one thing to streamline... its another thing to OVERSIMPLIFY...

Oversimplification can lead to tediousness, which I think is what we're getting to. And the more complicated something is the more strategic it also becomes. While I certainly understand the previous 30+ button rotations may have been a little bit much... going back down to a 1-2 button rotation is a bit too much.

That is Overkill... and unnecessary and in the end creates just as many problems as it solves. I get trying to make things a little easier... but this... this is off the deep end on the other side of the pool and is the same problem as was there before, plus removes any and all strategic or tactical approaches and also removes the uniqueness in the individual jobs.

Overcompensation never solves anything, it only makes it worse.

[CelestiCer]

Square Knee-capping Jobs consistently with the only solution given to players who derive joy from playing the Jobs they Love being " Just go play Ultimate " doesn't cut it. The emphasis on Combo-Compression isn't even the main issue or solution... as Jobs have been streamlined in numerous ways before with no return of any noteworthy substance.

Oversimplifying Job-Gameplay doesn't even address any meaningful issue. Button-Bloat is better tackled with careful specific Job changes vs universally copy pasting the same solutions over every Job i.e think Combo Compression as 1 example, as if our Gameplay isn't homogenized enough. Zero proof that Job simplifications were ever required to create certain mechanics. Simpler Job-designs doesn't equal better Fight designs. The assumption of simplifying Jobs to create space for something new is wishful thinking, as some been waiting for years with nothing to show for what Square has erased. The only thing I see this solving is a near-non-issue aimed at players who wish to make their MSQ & Roulette experiences to be that much lazier and have no passion to master anything Job-wise.

Currently, Casual PvE combat content i.e anything before Extreme difficulty has zero meaningful Enrages its all faceroll. Thus? Square can easily add complexity without negatively impacting players only wishing to engage with casual gameplay or content and that's by making Job complexity completely Optional. This can be achieved without over bloating Skill-Kits even without heavy reworks. Keeping players who wish to press buttons however they like exactly where they are, while granting Players who wish to express Job Mastery and Pressing buttons in certain manners beyond what the Game asks of them to do? a rewarding Feedback Loop in not just Ultimate, but All PvE combat content.

The added issue of simplified Job-Gameplay, is Square giving zero incentives for players to improve. All the way from Lv1 to the end of Endwalker, nothing in it's Casual level content encourages players to improve in a meaningful useful manner until they are actually required to learn any proper basics i.e usually the first Extreme. Making or keeping most of this content at easy + making the Jobs easier? results in players being conditioned to wanting everything to be nothing but easy both the content and the Jobs. Suddenly a whiff of hardship is a burden to heavy to bare... Cause that's how Square has treated the player-base for so long - Like a bunch of Babies. This is a big reason to never expect Mechanics to be made more difficult nor to propose as a solution as this only applies to Ultimate of which isn't everyone's cup of tea.

Every simplification can't be labeled Quality of Life (QOL) either, as many changes ultimately removes the margain of error to do that tiny bit of extra players derive fun out of doing. Square rather deletes this with no sign of stopping. When I see players who main their Jobs with a passion... completely quitting Endwalker, even refusing to do the current Raid tier or Ultimates? it doesn't actually negatively hurt Square's wallet no. But, there's something off about beating the Passion our of players who used to love their Jobs... as if this somehow is a positive towards XIV beyond just making it a retirement home for MMO players.

- Optimized Comfiness is Not synonyms with Improved Job-Gameplay
- Parsing Laziness and Forced Casualism isn't Either

What plenty of players desire after so many simplifications? Firstly, is for it to stop. Secondly, to give something back as the bare minimum after to so long. Simplify, Easier, Homogonize, Streamline- give something back. Some flare some nuance something... not even in the form of extra buttons, something beyond this bare-bones Job-gameplay and somehow that's to much to ask. It's Taboo to desire or Elitism or it burdens players experience somehow because it's more important to appeal to the players who are passionless about Job-Gameplay, in fact? it's of utmost importance? to make easier first, make it as Souless, Thoughtless and Passionless as we can make it.

That's never been how I viewed XIV more then in Endwalker which is a damn shame, mhm...