Frontlines sucks Ultra megathread

[Mawlzy]

I honestly disagree that players who don't try are a symptom. I believe they're one of the roots of why FL can be unenjoyable. If everyone actually tried to win regardless of the situation, you'd always end up with less people feeding the premade because everyone would be trying to survive and not give out free points. If people give up the moment they see a premade, they'll play worse and give in to an endless cycle of feeding the premade, which demoralises the rest of the team.

This is precisely what happens on Aether. If we're breaking down cause and effect, I guess you can attribute it to some mindset issue, but we have no way of changing that. So given that is off the table, you've come to the correct conclusion:

Presence Of Premade --> Casuals Give Up --> Demoralizes Team (--> Less Enjoyable Matches)

You see the thing we can actually change in this sequence?

[Archeron]

And all this is made a lot easier when they're fed. You claimed that premade players are often not that good to be at the upper end of skill, so they're nothing without being fed kills, yes?

I honestly disagree that players who don't try are a symptom. I believe they're one of the roots of why FL can be unenjoyable. If everyone actually tried to win regardless of the situation, you'd always end up with less people feeding the premade because everyone would be trying to survive and not give out free points. If people give up the moment they see a premade, they'll play worse and give in to an endless cycle of feeding the premade, which demoralises the rest of the team.

You're assuming that players are just purposefully throwing themselves into a meat grinder to die. They're not.

I do say that premade players often aren't on the "Upper end" of the skill bracket, because they're not. It doesn't take a genius to take a Dark knight, press salted earth, and have 3 other members of your party follow up with CC and limit breaks to literally kill everyone who got pulled in. That's not being "fed" kills. If getting caught in Salted Earth counts as feeding, then getting killed by a Ninja LB, or Samurai LB also counts as feeding. Where do you draw the line?

People who don't try are a symptom of a broken system. If its not fun, why try? Especially when the end game results give you the same roulette reward regardless of first or third. They definetely have no incentive to requeue after the roulette bonus is gone unless they're farming achievements, or tomestones. Premade players do not understand the casual player mindset, (Perhaps even the solo player mindset as well) or they just don't care, and as a result they sit here bewildered as to why they're disliked, and pointed out as one of the major reasons why people don't enjoy frontlines.

If everyone actually tried to win regardless of the situation, you'd always end up with less people feeding the premade because everyone would be trying to survive and not give out free points. If people give up the moment they see a premade, they'll play worse and give in to an endless cycle of feeding the premade, which demoralises the rest of the team.

By your standards, what is trying? You say casuals "feed" premades, and they "give away free kills". It sounds like you just have no respect for these people who make up the majority of the frontlines population. It seems to me like you just don't understand the mindset of these players. You can't expect them to just "try to win" when they genuinely don't care about the end game results. They just want it to be over with, because frontlines is not fun. They're not queueing into it a second time, especially not when people run around accusing them of feeding the enemy team, not trying, and they have to face premades they don't know how to counter or deal with, and die repeatedly. Does that sound like a fun experience to you? Does that motivate you (as a casual player) to learn more about how to be a good frontlines player?

[Aravell]

By your standards, what is trying? You say casuals "feed" premades, and they "give away free kills". It sounds like you just have no respect for these people who make up the majority of the frontlines population. It seems to me like you just don't understand the mindset of these players. You can't expect them to just "try to win" when they genuinely don't care about the end game results. They just want it to be over with, because frontlines is not fun. They're not queueing into it a second time, especially not when people run around accusing them of feeding the enemy team, not trying, and they have to face premades they don't know how to counter or deal with, and die repeatedly. Does that sound like a fun experience to you? Does that motivate you (as a casual player) to learn more about how to be a good frontlines player?

If someone genuinely wants to know how to counter something, they will ask for help or look up the multitude of guides online. They would not queue repeatedly in FL and die to the very same DRK pull strat and complain about it.

You paint the casual player as someone who "just wants to get it over with", that sounds like they don't even want to be there in the first place, so why exactly should I respect such a person?

I've been the person at the bottom of the leaderboards that died a whole bunch before, I practiced, I learned, I got better. I did not run into a meat grinder repeatedly while expecting a different result.

And yes, if someone dies to the very same DRK pull for the entire match, even though the DRK is marked (they usually are), then they are not trying their best, they are feeding.

They way you word things sometimes makes it look like you're trying to excuse the casual player from actually learning basic FL knowledge while blaming others for exploiting their inexperience.

[Archeron]

If someone genuinely wants to know how to counter something, they will ask for help or look up the multitude of guides online. They would not queue repeatedly in FL and die to the very same DRK pull strat and complain about it.

You paint the casual player as someone who "just wants to get it over with", that sounds like they don't even want to be there in the first place, so why exactly should I respect such a person?

I've been the person at the bottom of the leaderboards that died a whole bunch before, I practiced, I learned, I got better. I did not run into a meat grinder repeatedly while expecting a different result.

And yes, if someone dies to the very same DRK pull for the entire match, even though the DRK is marked (they usually are), then they are not trying their best, they are feeding.

They way you word things sometimes makes it look like you're trying to excuse the casual player from actually learning basic FL knowledge while blaming others for exploiting their inexperience.

You ignored my question. Does the experience I described to you sound motivating for a casual player to dive deeper into PvP? Yes or no.

I don't excuse casual players who make it patently clear that they're genuinely not going to try. Those players deserve to be vote kicked out of the game.

But you have to ask "Why don't they want to try?". There are a lot of reasons that contribute to them adopting that attitude, and it needs to be combatted. If you don't address that, nothing will change. You will continue to queue with inexperienced players who don't want to learn. Those who may be open to learning, will be pushed away if the game mode sucks, and isn't fun for them, and the community is being toxic towards them.

A part of what pushes a lot of casuals away is when they're stomped repeatedly by premades, and they lose every single match they're queued into. Again, refer to "If the game mode isn't fun, why bother learning more?". They'll try to play, just not in the most effective manner to us experienced onlookers.

You also have no right to complain about these "non contributing" players who you belittle and call "feeders", if you're not willing to do anything to help them besides label them as useless and down play any contributions or efforts they're trying to put into the match. All this does is pushes people away from PvP. You learned on your own, great. Other people won't, either through lack of experience playing games with PvP in general, or they aren't naturally inclined. Ping them to retreat when Dark Knights are approaching. Announce that they need to stun Dark Knights as much as possible in a productive manner.

Will they listen? Sometimes. If you're rude about it, they absolutely WILL NOT listen to you.

If they aren't even reading Alliance chat, then take the L. It's better to try than to do nothing and then complain or be toxic towards them.

[Mawlzy]

If someone genuinely wants to know how to counter something, they will ask for help or look up the multitude of guides online. They would not queue repeatedly in FL and die to the very same DRK pull strat and complain about it.

You paint the casual player as someone who "just wants to get it over with", that sounds like they don't even want to be there in the first place, so why exactly should I respect such a person?

I've been the person at the bottom of the leaderboards that died a whole bunch before, I practiced, I learned, I got better. I did not run into a meat grinder repeatedly while expecting a different result.

And yes, if someone dies to the very same DRK pull for the entire match, even though the DRK is marked (they usually are), then they are not trying their best, they are feeding.

They way you word things sometimes makes it look like you're trying to excuse the casual player from actually learning basic FL knowledge while blaming others for exploiting their inexperience.

Have you ever thought about how games and game modes grow? How new players become interested in a mode and want to get better? PvP games/modes are notorious for struggling with this, and it's invariably because of a self-appointed elite who are completely deaf to any criticisms that might diminish their "fun," and who can't see beyond "win at any cost."

How do you think poker continues to be played by tens of millions of people when 90% of them lose?

[Aravell]

You also have no right to complain about these "non contributing" players who you belittle and call "feeders", if you're not willing to do anything to help them besides label them as useless and down play any contributions or efforts they're trying to put into the match. All this does is pushes people away from PvP. You learned on your own, great. Other people won't, either through lack of experience playing games with PvP in general, or they aren't naturally inclined. Ping them to retreat when Dark Knights are approaching. Announce that they need to stun Dark Knights as much as possible in a productive manner.

Will they listen? Sometimes. If you're rude about it, they absolutely WILL NOT listen to you.

If they aren't even reading Alliance chat, then take the L. It's better to try than to do nothing and then complain or be toxic towards them.

You seem to be making a mighty lot of assumptions about me.

I've helped my fair share of players get acclimated to every iteration of FL, in RW, in Feast and in CC. But sure, label me an unhelpful person who's just toxic for no reason.

You also seem to assume that I'm being toxic and calling these people feeders in chat. Thanks for making that assumption, but I don't, sorry to disappoint you.

I'm only pointing out that them existing in the alliance reduces your chances of beating a premade, that's an undeniable fact. It's also a fact that dying repeatedly to a DRK stack is actively reducing your points and increasing their damage, their contributions are basically negative, that is also a fact. Whether you want to agree that they're a feeder or not is irrelevant.

[YouWereIndicted]

snip

I don't know why you keep defending and excusing these lazy players. Man, I got into this game a year ago and PvP even less so in the grand scheme of things I consider myself a new player. What did I do? I asked questions towards the right people, joined some servers, read guides and the rest is history. Now I have every PvP reward I want.

You mentioned people not enjoying the experience and that is why they slack. I'm gonna be honest with you...I personally am not too big on MMO PvP, haha. It is definitely not my cup of tea and I much prefer other PvP and as we know, XIVs PvP is at the bottom of the barrel for MMO PvP. Despite this, I want what is best for the game mode regardless and I bring my best to my team and try my hardest because I'm on a team and they require me to do so. You mentioned overall the casual players finding the experience unfun and demotivating. You know what? I feel the same way when I'm on a team of slackers and people who don't care. This isn't a Frontline issue, it is a playerbase issue. People do this in roulettes, too. But no matter how much SE tries to make the PvP as casual as possible you cannot remove the desire to win and the competitive spirit from human nature. So, nah, no excuses...if you aren't here to give it your all, get out of my game and please get off of my team lmao. I completely understand why people group up with 3 others to pub stomp, it is the only way to have fun in this silly mode. You're disregarding other people who enjoy the mode and are trying. Me for example, I'm a solo queuer (mostly because I'm still new and haven't really bothered to make PvP friends yet) and these players we are going off about make me not enjoy the mode. Matter of fact, I'm most likely not playing this mode anymore until new rewards are released or until they do something with the mode.

http://imgur.com/a/30GQTtQ



Here is one of my last games going against a premade with a strong comp and using burst macros while I was not in a premade (sorry I don't know how to post images directly to my post). No need to show my teams' score. As you see I am at the top and none of them are near me. They all did way less damage than me and died a million times despite me being 1 of the 3 other melees on my team. While I saw the DRK burst coming from a mile away and avoided it. I even successfully killed some of them myself by counter bursting and my team still fed them BH after they respawned. Pointless, man. I'm sharing this to show that this is my experience pretty much every game unless I'm on a team of premades or good players which is rare. Nowadays I just queue to pad damage cause even times where I go on MNK to harass a premade (and successfully too) my team still feeds them and dies. As I said countless of times...premades are not the issue. This mode is a lost cause. Ranked CC is the only thing that has some kind of respect for effort and that is a mode on life support 99% of the time after the first week of the season.

[Archeron]

You seem to be making a mighty lot of assumptions about me.

I've helped my fair share of players get acclimated to every iteration of FL, in RW, in Feast and in CC. But sure, label me an unhelpful person who's just toxic for no reason.

You also seem to assume that I'm being toxic and calling these people feeders in chat. Thanks for making that assumption, but I don't, sorry to disappoint you.

I'm only pointing out that them existing in the alliance reduces your chances of beating a premade, that's an undeniable fact. It's also a fact that dying repeatedly to a DRK stack is actively reducing your points and increasing their damage, their contributions are basically negative, that is also a fact. Whether you want to agree that they're a feeder or not is irrelevant.

Ignoring my question yet again. Excellent.

You give me plenty of ground to make assumptions when you're going around calling casual players "feeders" and labelling their contributions as useless, and accusing them of not trying. Now you turn around and try to paint yourself as a benevolent, helpful figure? Sorry, you've given me little reason to assume otherwise, especially when you openly admit to not respecting other people who don't play to your standards.

Nobody is even contesting that dead weight players are reducing your chances of fighting a premade. Again, if you want them to stop dying to Dark Knights that they either don't see coming, or don't know how to handle Call out their advance with a macro, or don't complain when they get killed repeatedly. You can't accuse them of not trying to contribute if they're actively running into combat, unlike the other dead weight players who'll just sit around the back lines casting zero spells, running away the second they take any damage at all, floating around doing literally nothing.

snip

Its those lazy players, who will continue to be lazy because of the way Frontlines is. The game mode is massively flawed. It's not fun, and I'm against Everything that makes it bad to play. The only solution to fix frontlines is a major overhaul, and fresh new content, that we're likely never going to get at the end of the day.

I defend the casual players from toxic attitudes. I do not defend laziness. They are participating in the best way they know how, that is more than enough for me to be satisfied. Can they do better? Absolutely. I will always provide those players the advice, and guides they need to improve themselves. But at the same time, I understand why players do not put their maximum effort into learning all the intricacies of Frontlines. Especially the rouletters. You want them to GTFO, well they're the reason the Frontlines queue even pops in the first place. I hate to break it to you, but not everyone is going to join servers, or ask questions on content they don't enjoy. The community being apathetic, and failing to play with a higher skill level is a symptom of a greater problems within frontlines. This is why the community Has not changed since 6.1. It will remain the same going into 7.0.

Everyone seems to think that just "raising the communities skill level" is the solution.
Why hasn't the community gotten better since 6.1 then? It's been almost 2 years since they implemented the last major overhaul to PvP. Thats plenty of time for people to have learned, even if they only did roulettes once a week, every week since 6.1.
The answer? Frontlines has gotten significantly less enjoyable since then. Shatter being ruined, Borderland ruins being outright deleted, and jobs being given nonsensical buffs/nerfs, and problems left to fester for 6 months at a time. The game mode is not fun. People will not put effort into things they don't find fun. If you don't fix that, the community will continue not to care.

[OliviaLugria]

I'm a solo queuer (mostly because I'm still new and haven't really bothered to make PvP friends yet) and these players we are going off about make me not enjoy the mode. Matter of fact, I'm most likely not playing this mode anymore until new rewards are released or until they do something with the mode.

If you're on aether feel free to hit me up! Sounds like you already joined some groups, but the more the merrier!

[Aravell]

Snip

Uh huh, you claim I'm toxic and that I'm now painting myself as some benevolent angel. Nothing you've said about me is true, but you don't care, you disagree with me, so you think it's fair to paint me as evil, I've seen your type before. You ask leading questions and then get smug when people refuse to answer, you paint people who disagree with you as evil and toxic to the casuals, you're not worth talking to, I bid you a good day.