What lore do you ignore?

[Cleretic]

It's actually hilarious how overt the sexual undertones between him and Livia were in ARR,

I admit I'm rarely able to pick up on romantic/sexual subtext unless it's shouted at me (and I usually hate it when they do that), but I never got this idea. I always thought it was a pretty clear superior-subordinate relationship with an element of uneven emotional investment; Livia clearly has stronger feelings towards Gaius than Gaius had towards her, but even they weren't sexual. I never caught a single hint of sexuality from either of them... honestly, ever, that corner of the story is remarkably sexless compared to a few others.

The only evidence I see people bring up was when Gaius went 'see me in my quarters', and apparently to some people that implied sex. But I thought it was pretty clear that he was just taking her to a private location so he can chew her out for screwing up without getting overheard.

[SannaR]

I admit I'm rarely able to pick up on romantic/sexual subtext unless it's shouted at me (and I usually hate it when they do that), but I never got this idea. I always thought it was a pretty clear superior-subordinate relationship with an element of uneven emotional investment; Livia clearly has stronger feelings towards Gaius than Gaius had towards her, but even they weren't sexual. I never caught a single hint of sexuality from either of them... honestly, ever, that corner of the story is remarkably sexless compared to a few others.

The only evidence I see people bring up was when Gaius went 'see me in my quarters', and apparently to some people that implied sex. But I thought it was pretty clear that he was just taking her to a private location so he can chew her out for screwing up without getting overheard.

Most likely due to it being a trope in many a Sci fi or military fiction where the person who is in need of a verbal dressing down gets either A no dressing down and a steamy or aggressive smexy times. Or B the roll in the hay still happens with the dressing down happening before, during or after said intimacy happens. It happens so often that people tend to see it/read it as short hand as fraternization is going to happen. Why so many have had been grossed out by that scene. Due to the age difference and the obvious power imbalance. Why when Werlyt came out and they put in the whole there wasn't anything in between them many had a "Oh thank goodness." moment. Though it doesn't change how Livia talks about Gaius as even if you don't read her whole "You're keeping me away from my Gaius and only I can be at his side." crap as not romantic it is still kinda creepy for a person whose ment to be in a father daughter relationship.

[Cleretic]

Most likely due to it being a trope in many a Sci fi or military fiction where the person who is in need of a verbal dressing down gets either A no dressing down and a steamy or aggressive smexy times. Or B the roll in the hay still happens with the dressing down happening before, during or after said intimacy happens. It happens so often that people tend to see it/read it as short hand as fraternization is going to happen. Why so many have had been grossed out by that scene. Due to the age difference and the obvious power imbalance. Why when Werlyt came out and they put in the whole there wasn't anything in between them many had a "Oh thank goodness." moment. Though it doesn't change how Livia talks about Gaius as even if you don't read her whole "You're keeping me away from my Gaius and only I can be at his side." crap as not romantic it is still kinda creepy for a person whose ment to be in a father daughter relationship.

Thanks for pointing out what I generally suspected might've been going on. Yeah, Livia's absolutely and very clearly not okay, but the only indication of there being a sex thing going on comes from people projecting nonexistent subtext from other media onto it.

We know what FFXIV writing inappropriate sexual situations is like. We especially know what that was like during ARR, and it wasn't wink-wink 'you know what this means' subtext about a very specific trope. If they wanted that to be part of the text around Gaius it would've been written in twelve-foot tall neon text on the wall of the Praetorium. You wouldn't have to dig for that treasure chest.

[Keichi]

We know what FFXIV writing inappropriate sexual situations is like. We especially know what that was like during ARR, and it wasn't wink-wink 'you know what this means' subtext about a very specific trope. If they wanted that to be part of the text around Gaius it would've been written in twelve-foot tall neon text on the wall of the Praetorium. You wouldn't have to dig for that treasure chest.

What example are in ARR with that context?
I know/remember only 1 scene. And that is after a fate at the sun beach, where you has to protect a dancer, who was going to the east part of the Coast. And where a male npc say, that both could wait inside a building, until its time for her job. And both walken very fast to that building. Where it looks heavy cleary, what both would probably do there.
The only other moment, where a slightly hint of that exist, would be the elezen, near Ishgard, who is helping us later.
That he says at last in some languanges things, as if he is interessted in us and want us to be in his sleeping room later (what is interrupted by Alphy, who missunderstand that). At last, how i remember the scene (i need to replay that part, and it is at last my head canon, that there was happening something, if your WoL is female, the same with Zenos interesst in you, if you are female -in addition of his lust of hunting and fighting-)

[SannaR]

What example are in ARR with that context?
I know/remember only 1 scene. And that is after a fate at the sun beach, where you has to protect a dancer, who was going to the east part of the Coast. And where a male npc say, that both could wait inside a building, until its time for her job. And both walken very fast to that building. Where it looks heavy cleary, what both would probably do there.
The only other moment, where a slightly hint of that exist, would be the elezen, near Ishgard, who is helping us later.
That he says at last in some languanges things, as if he is interessted in us and want us to be in his sleeping room later (what is interrupted by Alphy, who missunderstand that). At last, how i remember the scene (i need to replay that part, and it is at last my head canon, that there was happening something, if your WoL is female, the same with Zenos interesst in you, if you are female -in addition of his lust of hunting and fighting-)

The women we see in Sastasha, the post moogle quest of stroking the haft, many female npc speech bubbles in Limsa hint to said activities. The Ninja quest Ninja Bathin'.. The mamool Ja that you beat up in the fate Peeping Ja. His "dance" is implied to be more about what he wants to do with some of the female Miqo'te bathers. Also Haurchefant, Aymeric, Zenos and any other npc that can be seen as flirting with the WoL don't care about their gender. Magnai and Daidukul being rare exceptions. As Magnai only wants to flirt with you if you're female and well all Buduga only want to interact with other men.

[ThorneDynasty]

I admit I'm rarely able to pick up on romantic/sexual subtext unless it's shouted at me (and I usually hate it when they do that), but I never got this idea. I always thought it was a pretty clear superior-subordinate relationship with an element of uneven emotional investment; Livia clearly has stronger feelings towards Gaius than Gaius had towards her, but even they weren't sexual. I never caught a single hint of sexuality from either of them... honestly, ever, that corner of the story is remarkably sexless compared to a few others.

The only evidence I see people bring up was when Gaius went 'see me in my quarters', and apparently to some people that implied sex. But I thought it was pretty clear that he was just taking her to a private location so he can chew her out for screwing up without getting overheard.

She also screams "his body and soul" belong to her. Not a super normal thought to have towards a parental figure.

Also fiction always has a reason to include everything. There's no reason to interject a scene where someone orders a subordinate to cross a professional line, such as meeting him alone in his quarters, if there's no subtext. And if it meant something else, they would have clarified that too, in that or a later scene. Instead later she says that.

[Cilia]

She also screams "his body and soul" belong to her. Not a super normal thought to have towards a parental figure.

Also fiction always has a reason to include everything. There's no reason to interject a scene where someone orders a subordinate to cross a professional line, such as meeting him alone in his quarters, if there's no subtext. And if it meant something else, they would have clarified that too, in that or a later scene. Instead later she says that.

The appropriate "subtext" requires a little bit of context; in a military setting, you never reprimand an officer in front of the soldiers they command because doing so could undermine their authority among the troops. With that context in mind, I always read the scene as Gaius going to chew Livia out for the Waking Sands massacre - the only officers higher in rank to Livia are Nero and Gaius himself, so he can't exactly discipline her in the open (and based on her dialogue with Nero after the Ifrit fight, she doesn't much respect him anyway).

To Gaius, Livia was just another orphan whose potential he could exploit in the pursuit of his conquest; Livia is possessive of Gaius because he's the only thing that gives her life meaning. There's definitely some unhealthy romantic (and plausibly sexual) obsession there, but it's entirely one-sided on Livia's part (which was confirmed by the Sorrow of Werlyt storyline).

[ThorneDynasty]

The appropriate "subtext" requires a little bit of context; in a military setting, you never reprimand an officer in front of the soldiers they command because doing so could undermine their authority among the troops. With that context in mind, I always read the scene as Gaius going to chew Livia out for the Waking Sands massacre - the only officers higher in rank to Livia are Nero and Gaius himself, so he can't exactly discipline her in the open (and based on her dialogue with Nero after the Ifrit fight, she doesn't much respect him anyway).

To Gaius, Livia was just another orphan whose potential he could exploit in the pursuit of his conquest; Livia is possessive of Gaius because he's the only thing that gives her life meaning. There's definitely some unhealthy romantic (and plausibly sexual) obsession there, but it's entirely one-sided on Livia's part (which was confirmed by the Sorrow of Werlyt storyline).

Which I pointed out is a blatant retcon. It's fiction with writers, not a document of events.

[Cleretic]

Which I pointed out is a blatant retcon. It's fiction with writers, not a document of events.

Outside of a single parenthetical, Cilia only outlined facts that were slapped down by ARR. They can't be retcons, because they're how the story was originally. Cilia's exactly right; there is a raw, organizational reason that Gaius does the thing he does, and that reason is not 'sex'. Livia's weird feelings towards him are ugly and terrible, but even back in ARR there was never a single word of a hint that they were requited.

It's something I don't think XIV will ever go into but it'd be the perfect excuse for a gender dysphoria story, as a Viera believing their whole life they were one sex just for puberty to hit them with the other one. However, this sounds too... complicated that I don't think CBU3 will attempt to try.

There's a few really interesting angles you could take with a story about gender dysphoria around the game's various races, because they have often have societies structured based on really specific gender roles. Off the top of my head I could see some solid exploration of societal roles and treatment of gender coming from the hrothgar or miqo'te, while the extreme sexual dimprohism of the au ra makes them a great way to explore bodily dysphoria. And on the flipside, the lalafel's near-total lack of sexual dimorphism could provide some interesting grounding for, say, a genderfluid or non-binary character; 'if there is no meaningful difference, what reason would anybody have to care?'

[Cilia]

Which I pointed out is a blatant retcon. It's fiction with writers, not a document of events.

Is it really a retcon though? The order in question is literally the only thing Gaius ever directly says to Livia. His view of her was never clear until Werlyt, because the reality is they barely interacted in A Realm Reborn.

In my opinion interpreting the order as a booty call comes entirely from a lack of understanding military culture and people having their minds in the gutter.

... but I can't tell people what and what not to believe.