G-give it Back T---T; !!

[ty_taurus]

Not a defense of removing Kaiten, but...

"Action Bloat" is generally not "too high an APM". It's when a button is pressed "just to be pressed", rather than its changing what ought be done before or after, and/or is necessarily constrained to a particular bundle that would, again, otherwise function identically even without it.

Which, Kaiten was... in itself. Its only claim to anything than bloat more was due to its gauge cost.

That, however, is not to say that bloat is never appreciable. People are free to like their woosh-woosh-wish animation even if it saw zero use outside of Iaijutsu and changed absolutely nothing about when and how Iaijutsu should be used.

Action bloat wasn't a sufficient reason to remove it, imo, but their reasoning does actually hold water. Remember, DRG's old Power Surge (90s CD meant to be used with Jump) was removed under the same rationale. Look at it from that angle, and it makes a lot more sense.

The problem is the narrowness of their view, as --again-- there was also the matter of how its costs interacted with other costs, and none of that impact was replaced nor reinvigorated in Kaiten's absence.

What I've said before is, if Kaiten is so problematic that it needed to be removed, why do that barely into the expansion and not wait till the next expansion to make more drastic changes? They did this with Monk during Shadowbringers as well, erased Greased Lightning as a buff in I believe 5.4 in preparation for the 6.0 rework, but what point was there to neutering Monk prematurely rather than just wait until you can do the full rework? Why mug a job's gameplay and leave it naked in the alleyway instead of wait till you have the replacement outfit ready and working? It makes no sense to me. Kaiten, Shadowbringers Monk, Endwalker Paladin... why are these such major emergencies that we need to blindside the job mid expansion when Sage's Toxikon had to stay a piece of hot garbage all throughout Endwalker? Make it make sense.

[grinkdaboy]

What I've said before is, if Kaiten is so problematic that it needed to be removed, why do that barely into the expansion and not wait till the next expansion to make more drastic changes? They did this with Monk during Shadowbringers as well, erased Greased Lightning as a buff in I believe 5.4 in preparation for the 6.0 rework, but what point was there to neutering Monk prematurely rather than just wait until you can do the full rework? Why mug a job's gameplay and leave it naked in the alleyway instead of wait till you have the replacement outfit ready and working? It makes no sense to me. Kaiten, Shadowbringers Monk, Endwalker Paladin... why are these such major emergencies that we need to blindside the job mid expansion when Sage's Toxikon had to stay a piece of hot garbage all throughout Endwalker? Make it make sense.

because monk was a steaming pile of garbage up until the rework which made it halfway decent. even better was that before 5.4 more people played blue mage than it

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

What I've said before is, if Kaiten is so problematic that it needed to be removed, why do that barely into the expansion and not wait till the next expansion to make more drastic changes? They did this with Monk during Shadowbringers as well, erased Greased Lightning as a buff in I believe 5.4 in preparation for the 6.0 rework, but what point was there to neutering Monk prematurely rather than just wait until you can do the full rework? Why mug a job's gameplay and leave it naked in the alleyway instead of wait till you have the replacement outfit ready and working? It makes no sense to me. Kaiten, Shadowbringers Monk, Endwalker Paladin... why are these such major emergencies that we need to blindside the job mid expansion when Sage's Toxikon had to stay a piece of hot garbage all throughout Endwalker? Make it make sense.

So, my issue with kaiten post 6.0 was the frequency it had to be used in the opener and in burst windows. This part tends to be ignored, but with the addition of namikiri, you had to use kaiten 3 times in quick secession, while also using your other ogcds. This was a lot of button presses in those phases and it was much easier to flub vs the 5.x burst phases.

This is one of the reasons why I've consistently said namikiri was one of the worst things added to the job.

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

Reposting this because it got lost in a sudden bout of weird fighting over nothing and I think it adds some context to the "action bloat" thing.

So, my issue with kaiten post 6.0 was the frequency it had to be used in the opener and in burst windows. This part tends to be ignored, but with the addition of namikiri, you had to use kaiten 3 times in quick secession, while also using your other ogcds. This was a lot of button presses in those phases and it was much easier to flub vs the 5.x burst phases.

This is one of the reasons why I've consistently said namikiri was one of the worst things added to the job.

[ty_taurus]

Reposting this because it got lost in a sudden bout of weird fighting over nothing and I think it adds some context to the "action bloat" thing.

But doesn't that mean your issue was with Namikiri and not Kaiten?

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

But doesn't that mean your issue was with Namikiri and not Kaiten?

Yes, and I've also said that, and people tell me I'm wrong and namikiri was a great addition to the game even though its literally just old midare with an aoe.


One or the other needed to go, and they got rid of the old.

[ty_taurus]

Yes, and I've also said that, and people tell me I'm wrong and namikiri was a great addition to the game even though its literally just old midare with an aoe.


One or the other needed to go, and they got rid of the old.

But why did one or the other need to go, specifically? What about simply changing one or the other, or changing how they interact? What if Kaiten simply didn't boost Namikiri? Or what if Kaiten just had something like a 10 second cooldown with 2 charges, or some other way to limit it in such a way that your issue was no longer a concern? Why is the guillotine the first and only solution when we see a negative interaction?

[Valkyrie_Lenneth]

But why did one or the other need to go, specifically? What about simply changing one or the other, or changing how they interact? What if Kaiten simply didn't boost Namikiri? Or what if Kaiten just had something like a 10 second cooldown with 2 charges, or some other way to limit it in such a way that your issue was no longer a concern? Why is the guillotine the first and only solution when we see a negative interaction?

The same reason kaiten doesn't actually matter as a skill. They rolled it into the potency of the skills that actually used it and got rid of it. It's literally a flourish and thats it. It had no other purpose.


My issues with namikiri are that it was just old midare.




While I didn't hate kaiten in 5.x, it was.... kind of a pointless skill.



What you should be asking is for them to just add the animation to the casts, since thats pretty much what most people are complaining about. The missing animation. The kenki costs were negligible and anyone who played the job at any level higher than msq made sure to have enough. the nerf of cost from guren and senai was more egregious for kenki costs being made brain dead.