(EW Spoilers) Tales from the Dawn #5 - Days Gone By, Days Yet to Come

[reginleif-]

[…]It seems to me that this might be the formal ceremonial incantation for "returning to the star".

In the Elpis side quest “Methods of Mourning,” an incantation was performed for a burial ceremony as well:

Vessels within which life once flowed; cheated of purpose, stilled and cold. Unto the land you now return, the fuel 'pon which new life shall burn.

So such chants really may be a part of traditions of the ancient world.

[Lyth]

It's worth remembering that we were already given a chronology around Azem's departure back during Shadowbringers, over four years ago.

At the time of Zodiark's original summoning, we know that there were no factions, and that the entire star was unified behind the will of the Convocation. Azem left prior to Zodiark's original summoning, making them the very first individual on the star to break that unity and defy the Convocation. We also know that this act of rebellion was deemed sufficiently egregious that the Convocation elected to erase Azem permanently from their society's collective memory.

'I mentioned before that there was a member of the Convocation who opposed Zodiark's summoning and defected. One whose office was left vacant...

Defectors having been deemed unworthy of commemoration, no crystal exists for the individual in question. Or shouldn't exist, at any rate - and wouldn't, had a friend not created one in secret.'

In a lot of ways, this singular act of defiance paved the way for Venat and friends to follow suit when a call was subsequently made to offer a third round of sacrifices to Zodiark. It's hard to say what Azem's reaction would have been to the subsequent fallout, because we don't actually know where Azem went. (Yet?)

As someone who requested a story about Azem (the 'other' text field opened up a lot of great submission opportunities), what I like the most about this ending is the potential to segue into other stories. After all, Azem is an expert in travel magic. If they set off in search of solutions to the Final Days, who knows where - or better yet, when - they could end up? The possibilities are endless, when space-time is your oyster.

As an aside, wasn't Elidibus canonically just a boy, based off of both Tales from the Shadows and his appearance in 5.3? Not to sink any headcanon ships, of course. Once again, Elidibus' exuberance and admiration draw more parallels to G'raha than anyone else. They're natural foils to each other.

It's always sad to see new old friends disappear. Hyth and Emet may have dissolved back into the lifestream, but our memories of them will always remain. Likewise, with the recent end of the Callback Campaign, I'm sure we will likewise have to once again bid adieu to some more 'new old friends' who have shown up for the first time in months, to over a year. Insert coin to continue.

Anyway.

'We are thee, and thou art us'

Do I detect a Persona crossover in the making? At least Gaius' mask collection will finally be put to good use.

[redheadturk]

As an aside, wasn't Elidibus canonically just a boy, based off of both Tales from the Shadows and his appearance in 5.3? Not to sink any headcanon ships, of course. Once again, Elidibus' exuberance and admiration draw more parallels to G'raha than anyone else. They're natural foils to each other.

In Japanese they use the word Seinen, which is basically a young [typically college age or thereabouts] man, rather than shounen, which is a tween/teen boy. So he is an adult, albeit a young one.

[Zero-ELEC]

Honestly my reading if Endwalker was quite different from yours, I've had so many people of these forums tell me the ancients deserved to have exterminated as they could cope with trauma in the correct way and that Venat had to remake the world to be one of constant suffering to forge better people I'd say that's rather judgemental on people who break under the trauma especially after Venats vile hate spitelaiden speach when she pass judgement on the ancients and makes herself God. Also a story were depressed people turn into monsters and murder everyone around them seems pretty spitefully judgemental to me on people not coping with Trauma is the correct way.

I think you're projecting stuff that isn't there. I would not characterize Venat's words as "vile hate spiteladen" at all.

The scene in question:

Venat (V.O): Even now, I remember standing there. Locked in a moment where the sky is aflame. Where stars fall as tears, and screams darken the seas. Where resignation rots the trees. Where terror twists magicks into abominations. Such is the lament of they who have gone before. The song of they who tried and failed to create a better world. The song of the end. That which hides at the edge of the universe is no longer hope's creation. It is hopelessness incarnate. That day, mankind saw half of its number sacrificed to bring Zodiark. And covering the star in a shroud of aether, we forestalled the Final Days. Yet the cries echoed still... We wept for innocence lost. Wailed for death inevitable. A reality too terrible to bear... And for too many, who sought comfort in gilded memories of joyful days and tranquil nights.

Venat walks through burning streets, sees a man's creation magicks create a terminus beast which eats him. Sees Hythlodaeus bid farewell to Hades. Sees Hermes lament and comes across a group of gathered ancients.

Bitter Ancient: This is all wrong... Why must we suffer so?

Fervent Ancient: It needn't be like this. No, there must be a way to restore things to the way they were. To reclaim the perfect paradise we once had.

Venat: No, my friends. Suffering exists, and we cannot pretend otherwise. No civilization, however great, could eliminate it. If we would live, we must accept it as our constant companion. Let us not seek to forget this tragedy. Let us carry it in our hearts, that we may grow stronger and know true happiness.

Bitter Ancient: We can't accept it! We won't accept it! It will be ours again—a world free of sorrow!

Venat: No, it will not, for there has ever been sorrow. Mankind was but spared its biting sting for a time. So please, open your eyes. To try and reclaim those lives we lost by sacrificing yet more isn't wisdom. It is weakness. No paradise is without its shadows. If we cannot accept this truth and learn from our pain, then our plight shall be repeated.

The ancients turn away from Venat and towards the sky. Close up on Venat's face as she visibly grows crestfallen.

Fervent Ancient: O mighty Zodiark, god born of our boundless faith! We bid you hear our prayer! Accept this offering of lives, and deliver unto us the lives we once had. Deliver unto us the days of old... The days when the star was a font of love, and we knew naught but bliss!

Close up on Venat's face as her eyebrows furrow sadly and she grits her teeth. She closes her eyes and lowers her head. Close up on her hand as her sword manifests in it. The bitter ancient turns to look at Venat, and sees her sword. Venat's face isn't shown. As he speaks the other ancients turn to look at Venat. Low angle long shot from behind Venat, framing her in the middle with the ancients smaller to her sides.

Bitter Ancient: You would destroy it? Our beautiful world?

Venat: Lands that stretched on forever. Skies one could drown in. The heartbeat of nature, silent yet strong.

The shot reverses, a high angle medium shot from the ancients in the foreground but Venat remains in the middle, smaller than the other ancients.

Venat: And amidst it all a people. Beacons of light and life. Laughter that warmed my heart like naught else before. They are my meaning and my purpose. My love.

Close up of Venat as she opens her eyes, a slight smile at her recollection, her head still hung. The shot of the sword returns, followed by a closeup shot of the fervent ancient.

Venat: In spite of... or perhaps because of this, I choose to believe. In mankind's potential. In his ability to find a way forward.

Venat begins walking towards the group of ancients and stops as the camera slowly pans up to her face as she once more opens her eyes and looks forward, no longer smiling or sad.

Venat: So let there be no way back. From that temptation I sunder us. No more shall man have wings to bear him to paradise.

Venat raises her sword to the sky. She lowers her sword to the side of her face as the camera tightens up into a close up.

Venat: Hencecforth, he shall walk.

Venat raises her sword again as light pours from her blade and the camera widens. The other ancients raise their hands and cower from the display as everything is covered in white.

White turns to black as a corridor of white smoke pours from the dark and Venat walks through it, limping, her robes tattered, sword still in her hand.

Venat (V.O): All is excruciating pain. I breath fire and torment.

As the camera pans up her front, her face is revealed to be dirtied and bloodied, her expression tired.

Venat (V.O): I birth a world of suffering to mire and plague.

Venat walks by non-ancient peoples suffering, destitute, arguing, bereft of hope, afraid, mourning. Suddenly a flash of impact, Venat staggers as if hit, her sword falls to the ground as her face gets partially covered in black muck. Her robe is more tattered and dirty as she holds her arm and keeps walking.

Venat (V.O): In one fleeting moment, lives come and go. Ever moving towards the unknown. And in that fleeting moment, they cry for the answer to the question: Why, given life, are they meant to suffer. To die...

Venat staggers forward past the peoples suffering, the camera focusing on them before returning to Venat. Another flash of impact, Venat once again staggers, now fully covered in that dark muck like the blood of those she condemned to suffer.

Venat (V.O): As fragmented, imperfect beings, your is a never-ending quest.

Venat's steps slow, and for a moment, her staggering is replaced by the Warrior of Darkness walking towards Hades at the end of Shadowbringers. Thrice her walking turns into the Warrior of Darkness walking towards Emet-Selch as the camera spins around the duo and back to Venat.

Venat (V.O): A quest to find your purpose, knowing your end is assured. To find the strength to continue, when all strength has left you. To find joy, even as darkness descends...

The camera tightens on Venat's face, her shining eyes piercing through the muck that covers her face

Venat (V.O): ...And amidst deepest despair, light everlasting,

I mean, that literally lays in plain Endwalker's message: "Suffering exists, and we cannot pretend otherwise. [...] If we would live, we must accept it as our constant companion. Let us not seek to forget [...] tragedy. Let us carry it in our hearts, that we may grow stronger and know true happiness." True happiness here being in contrast to the fake happiness that would come from ignoring trauma and pretending bad things didn't happen or can be just waved away. It's not that "constant suffering" forges "better people", rather, pretending that suffering doesn't exist is unhealthy. And the scene goes on to show how Venat's judgement made shit bad for a long-ass time. It literally stains her in black to show she is not blameless for it.

Venat's speech is impassioned, then sad, then resolute. Never hateful or spiteful.

Again, the message and themes of Endwalker are not particularly complex, but they're pretty well defined.

Let's not minimize here. That wasn't "being forced out of their trauma". That was being "murdered en masse by someone they thought they could trust." Let's call a spade a spade and name Venat's actions for what they were.

Yeah, that's what I meant by "in a way that causes trauma for generations" and "in a terrible terrible no good way". Ancients are unique in their capacity for inhumanity by the sheer scale of their powers.

[redheadturk]

I think you're projecting stuff that isn't there. I would not characterize Venat's words as "vile hate spiteladen" at all.

The scene in question:



I mean, that literally lays in plain Endwalker's message: "Suffering exists, and we cannot pretend otherwise. [...] If we would live, we must accept it as our constant companion. Let us not seek to forget [...] tragedy. Let us carry it in our hearts, that we may grow stronger and know true happiness." True happiness here being in contrast to the fake happiness that would come from ignoring trauma and pretending bad things didn't happen or can be just waved away. It's not that "constant suffering" forges "better people", rather, pretending that suffering doesn't exist is unhealthy. And the scene goes on to show how Venat's judgement made shit bad for a long-ass time. It literally stains her in black to show she is not blameless for it.

Venat's speech is impassioned, then sad, then resolute. Never hateful or spiteful.

Again, the message and themes of Endwalker are not particularly complex, but they're pretty well defined.



Yeah, that's what I meant by "in a way that causes trauma for generations" and "in a terrible terrible no good way". Ancients are unique in their capacity for inhumanity by the sheer scale of their powers.

Most are good people. Hermes and Venat were very much outliers prior to the extreme trauma that led to the Rejoining plan.

[Cleretic]

Can we agree that it is an editor's duty to avoid the clashing of meanings, unless it is intended?

Do you know it's not intended? To me, both potential meanings can be relevant and meaningful in this case.

1. 'Soul' as in basically 'person'. as others mentioned, Hyth is reading this guy as being in a pretty dark and dour mood. (The fact he actually does have a dark color palette even for black-robed Ancients thanks to his hair might factor, too.)
2. 'Soul' as in 'soul', which is a thing Hyth can see. As I've mentioned, this actually also tracks for Hermes; he's doing bad, and it's visible on more levels than usual.

Essentially, the exact same meaning, just speaking on different layers.

I think you're demanding 'the curtains are blue' to have literal meaning when it's only ever clearly intended to have metaphorical. I have been an editor at times, and I can tell you, this sentence is A-OK.

Most are good people. Hermes and Venat were very much outliers prior to the extreme trauma that led to the Rejoining plan.

But what about all those things you said an Azem had to be to disprove my headcanon?

The four traits every Azem shares because they must to get the job: A love of traveling; the ability to translate the desires of Amaurot into a form the people outside of it could understand and vice verse; knowledge of the human mind enough to give counseling to *all the people of the star* both inside and outside of the city; and the intelligence, resourcefulness, and decency to know how to serve the needs of both the city and the people outside of it.

Anyone who does not have all four traits does not qualify for the seat[...]

Venat was an Azem, and by all reports a good one. So she must have all of these too, right?

[redheadturk]

Venat's extreme ideology post final days was an outlier. Happy now? I think you very well knew what I meant, you just chose to ignore the obvious context clues that should have been seen. What you said is not the gotcha you think it is.

[Nayukhuut]

Venat was an Azem, and by all reports a good one. So she must have all of these too, right?

Perhaps at one point, aye, but clearly she gave up any such traits in the Final Days. Her actions were quite horrific in the end.

[Cleretic]

Venat's extreme ideology post final days was an outlier. Happy now? I think you very well knew what I meant, you just chose to ignore the obvious context clues that should have been seen. What you said is not the gotcha you think it is.

I'm not, no. Because here's the thing:

Most are good people. Hermes and Venat were very much outliers prior to the extreme trauma that led to the Rejoining plan.

First of all, you've gone from 'led to the Rejoining plan' to 'post Final Days'. That's actually very important and you're gonna need to clarify, because those are two separate cause-effect relationships acted on by very different groups. Either you're talking about:

'Led to the rejoining plan' starts with the Sundering, and so the active party is the Ascians, a very specific group of thirteen people who went on acts of multi-planetary destruction. (We will ignore separate sources of trauma like Lahabrea, as well as clear evidence that they're not all on the same page, neither is useful here.)

But 'post Final Days' leads to the second and third Zodiark sacrifices, and so the active party is, broadly, the entire population of the planet who's suddenly dealing with the first thing really causing them to grapple with grief and trauma being unfathomably huge.

You need to be clear which one of those two you're essentially giving a pass to in this conversation, and not critiquing on the same level.

Because here's the other thing: you clearly think the 'extreme trauma' is an explanation. That we have to point at whichever one of these groups you mean and go 'they had to live through X and are dealing with that, and we need to keep that in mind'. Which is fair...

Except that you hold out the exceptions to be Hermes and Venat, who we therefore have to treat differently. But I would argue they also faced extreme trauma; they were different trauma, instead facing both of them with existentially horrifying information and betrayal that left them, in separate ways, feeling that they had to act. ...and then if your inciting truamatic event is the Final Days, for Venat, also living through that. (Hermes did too, but in a way that leaves both sources independent instead of compounded.) From the post-Elpis scene, this was clearly something she grappled with, and she clearly leaned on parts of her experience and expertise as Azem that you yourself outlined that she must have (specifically, the traveling and the counseling). She is not apart from this trauma that you correctly attribute to everyone around her... and yet, you treat her differently. As somehow separate, and deserving of separate scrutiny.

Intentionally or not, you're holding a double standard. And I think it's important that you either explain why she's different, or accept that she's not.

[thegreatonemal]

I'm not, no. Because here's the thing:



First of all, you've gone from 'led to the Rejoining plan' to 'post Final Days'. That's actually very important and you're gonna need to clarify, because those are two separate cause-effect relationships acted on by very different groups. Either you're talking about:

'Led to the rejoining plan' starts with the Sundering, and so the active party is the Ascians, a very specific group of thirteen people who went on acts of multi-planetary destruction. (We will ignore separate sources of trauma like Lahabrea, as well as clear evidence that they're not all on the same page, neither is useful here.)

But 'post Final Days' leads to the second and third Zodiark sacrifices, and so the active party is, broadly, the entire population of the planet who's suddenly dealing with the first thing really causing them to grapple with grief and trauma being unfathomably huge.

You need to be clear which one of those two you're essentially giving a pass to in this conversation, and not critiquing on the same level.

Because here's the other thing: you clearly think the 'extreme trauma' is an explanation. That we have to point at whichever one of these groups you mean and go 'they had to live through X and are dealing with that, and we need to keep that in mind'. Which is fair...

Except that you hold out the exceptions to be Hermes and Venat, who we therefore have to treat differently. But I would argue they also faced extreme trauma; they were different trauma, instead facing both of them with existentially horrifying information and betrayal that left them, in separate ways, feeling that they had to act. ...and then if your inciting truamatic event is the Final Days, for Venat, also living through that. (Hermes did too, but in a way that leaves both sources independent instead of compounded.) From the post-Elpis scene, this was clearly something she grappled with, and she clearly leaned on parts of her experience and expertise as Azem that you yourself outlined that she must have (specifically, the traveling and the counseling). She is not apart from this trauma that you correctly attribute to everyone around her... and yet, you treat her differently. As somehow separate, and deserving of separate scrutiny.

Intentionally or not, you're holding a double standard. And I think it's important that you either explain why she's different, or accept that she's not.

I think its time to stop going back and forth with these folk. He's not going to address any of this and will merely deflect and then make another wild accusation. Like always, like clockwork. We'll be back in in a week as the lore book drops and like pretty much most lore that has expanded upon particular topic, continue to prove them wrong.