(EW Spoilers) Tales from the Dawn #5 - Days Gone By, Days Yet to Come

[redheadturk]

And mine actually stems from a general view that, from our perspective, Azem is probably not what we'd see as 'a good person'. That's partially because I think the most interesting part of Amaurot is the ways in which they're very much not perfect, and partially because I like the dynamic that the WoL is actually a better person than the deified figure they're being compared to. So given one of my main jobs is Summoner I imagine their 'combat style' being purpose-built creation magic with little regard for the creature's comfort, wellbeing, or long-term viability; if an explosive bird solves the problem they're looking at today, it doesn't matter if it can survive to see tomorrow. (so yes, in my headcanon, they probably are a major cause of Hermes' existential questions.)

So I sort of picture them striking off from the Convocation not because of any moral objections per se, but because they just bet they can come up with something better. Perhaps when the sundering hit, they were off in some cave convinced they were onto something... or, perhaps they were there to see the skies burn, and caught the business end of their hubris as their creation magic turned against them, dying unremarkably and unnoticed.

As fun as that idea is, you can all understand why I don't particularly share it or try to make others see it.

We all know you disliked the Ancients and Azem in particular, Cleretic. I prefer a more mature view of both that shows them in a better light [I believe the Ancients were *good* people and prefer their society over the wars, hunger, rape, and slavery of the sundered, thank you very much. Give me that split timeline before I have to shake it out of you, SE!]. Azem would not have been Azem if they did not genuinely care about the world and its peoples, because that was what their seat required so far as qualifications. The four traits every Azem shares because they must to get the job: A love of traveling; the ability to translate the desires of Amaurot into a form the people outside of it could understand and vice verse; knowledge of the human mind enough to give counseling to *all the people of the star* both inside and outside of the city; and the intelligence, resourcefulness, and decency to know how to serve the needs of both the city and the people outside of it.

Anyone who does not have all four traits does not qualify for the seat, so yeah, Azem would not strike as a Heath Ledger Joker sort that would watch the world burn. It falls outside of his seat purview to do that, and if he was the sort who would would not *be* Azem.

[jameseoakes]

Anyone who does not have all four traits does not qualify for the seat, so yeah, Azem would not strike as a Heath Ledger Joker sort that would watch the world burn. It falls outside of his seat purview to do that, and if he was the sort who would would not *be* Azem.

I really hate the trauma makes you a better person trope that EW pushes really hard, especially as the people it breaks then get vilified. It's a really twisted plot point

[redheadturk]

I really hate the trauma makes you a better person trope that EW pushes really hard, especially as the people it breaks then get vilified. It's a really twisted plot point

Exactly! The Ancients deserved far better than they got, and the Sundered Lovers among the fanbase villifying a society a not insignificant portion of the fanbase loves is not a good look at all.

[Zero-ELEC]

I really hate the trauma makes you a better person trope that EW pushes really hard, especially as the people it breaks then get vilified. It's a really twisted plot point

That is a very uncharitable reading of Endwalker. At least, that's not how I interpreted it. What Endwalker has to say about trauma is that, if trauma is inevitable, and it often is because living is inherently traumatic in many ways, it is inevitable that one must navigate through it and beyond that trauma as best they can. People are not inherently better for going through trauma. Matsya isn't a better person for almost turning into a terminus beast and succumbing to despair, barely coping with the help of his religion. He still is, despite that trauma. That's all Endwalker has to say. That trauma is not the end, it's just another step in life. Something that can knock you down, but you can get up again from.

The game never vilifies people for breaking under trauma, either. Fandaniel/Hermes gets continued pathos about his views and his depression. The Blasphemies are never derided for giving in to despair. And Hades gets a whole section bringing him back, showing his point of view, based on him breaking under trauma, is not less valid because of it's origin or because Venat's hail mary plan worked in the end.

The closest I can see as the game's story saying anything nearly negative about people that suffered from trauma is the ancients, who are never vilified for their trauma. The ancients as a people get stuck in what the game frames as unhealthy behaviours because of trauma and they get forcibly pushed out of them (in a terrible terrible no good way because the ancients are inherently so powerful that they can impose their will over nature in such a way that is inhuman. This applies to Hermes, Venat and Hades alike. Think of it like a godly being staging an intervention.) The pain that the ancients felt is never minimized or made lesser. Them being stuck in unhealthy patterns and being forced out of them is not them being vilified, but someone within the same people that forces all of them to move on, in a way that causes terrible trauma for generations.

But the point is moving on and keeping on living is the only way to stay healthy, but not being healthy is not something to be vilified for at all. This is exemplified in both the Loporrit and Omicron quests that serve as a coda for the themes of the expansion, with the Loporrit quests being about people finding new purposes in life after their calling turned out to be a bust; while the Omicron quests are about what can let you live after trauma, the little things, the small pleasures, living in community, caring for others, etc.

Endalker's themes aren't exactly complex, but they're pretty well defined, and I would not say they fit that description.

[jameseoakes]

The game never vilifies people for breaking under trauma, either. Fandaniel/Hermes gets continued pathos about his views and his depression. The Blasphemies are never derided for giving in to despair. And Hades gets a whole section bringing him back, showing his point of view, based on him breaking under trauma, is not less valid because of it's origin or because Venat's hail mary plan worked in the end.

The closest I can see as the game's story saying anything nearly negative about people that suffered from trauma is the ancients, who are never vilified for their trauma. The ancients as a people get stuck in what the game frames as unhealthy behaviours because of trauma and they get forcibly pushed out of them (in a terrible terrible no good way because the ancients are inherently so powerful that they can impose their will over nature in such a way that is inhuman. This applies to Hermes, Venat and Hades alike. Think of it like a godly being staging an intervention.) The pain that the ancients felt is never minimized or made lesser. Them being stuck in unhealthy patterns and being forced out of them is not them being vilified, but someone within the same people that forces all of them to move on, in a way that causes terrible trauma for generations.

Honestly my reading if Endwalker was quite different from yours, I've had so many people of these forums tell me the ancients deserved to have exterminated as they could cope with trauma in the correct way and that Venat had to remake the world to be one of constant suffering to forge better people I'd say that's rather judgemental on people who break under the trauma especially after Venats vile hate spitelaiden speach when she pass judgement on the ancients and makes herself God. Also a story were depressed people turn into monsters and murder everyone around them seems pretty spitefully judgemental to me on people not coping with Trauma is the correct way.

[redheadturk]

The closest I can see as the game's story saying anything nearly negative about people that suffered from trauma is the ancients, who are never vilified for their trauma. The ancients as a people get stuck in what the game frames as unhealthy behaviours because of trauma and they get forcibly pushed out of them (in a terrible terrible no good way because the ancients are inherently so powerful that they can impose their will over nature in such a way that is inhuman. This applies to Hermes, Venat and Hades alike. Think of it like a godly being staging an intervention.) The pain that the ancients felt is never minimized or made lesser. Them being stuck in unhealthy patterns and being forced out of them is not them being vilified, but someone within the same people that forces all of them to move on, in a way that causes terrible trauma for generations.

Let's not minimize here. That wasn't "being forced out of their trauma". That was being "murdered en masse by someone they thought they could trust." Let's call a spade a spade and name Venat's actions for what they were.

[Iscah]

We don't really know anything about Azem's side of things, so nobody can really make any definitive statements about what they would/wouldn't/did/didn't think/do/say/eat about the whole situation. That's by design, too; Azem is a blank canvas, because they're a reflection of our WoL, who's also a blank canvas.

[...] 'It's true to me' is more important in this situation than 'it's true to everyone'.

And some of us really dislike that.

I don't care about Azem being like my character. We got through Shadowbringers in Ardbert's company without having an identity crisis about him being the same soul as our character and yet having his own story, appearance and identity.

In the same way, Azem could so easily be a unique character. They could take after Ardbert rather than us, or resemble any or none of the countless mortals who have inherited their soul since the Sundering.

I would much rather that Azem had a role to play, than this endless dance about "we promise Azem is around and doing cool stuff even though you'll never get to hear anything solid about them or their activities. Oh look they're off again, sorry you missed them."

[Lady_Silvermoon]

And some of us really dislike that.

I don't care about Azem being like my character. We got through Shadowbringers in Ardbert's company without having an identity crisis about him being the same soul as our character and yet having his own story, appearance and identity.

In the same way, Azem could so easily be a unique character. They could take after Ardbert rather than us, or resemble any or none of the countless mortals who have inherited their soul since the Sundering.

I would much rather that Azem had a role to play, than this endless dance about "we promise Azem is around and doing cool stuff even though you'll never get to hear anything solid about them or their activities. Oh look they're off again, sorry you missed them."

I'm traumatized enough. I don't want to find out a past reincarnation of me condoned the destruction of an entire world and for my best friend/possible love interest to be tortured for 12 thousand years straight along with my Ancient G'raha who adored me so much he became me as he tried to kill me. No. No more. My WoL has enough blood of sweet, innocent people on her hands thanks to Endwalker. Unless Azem was doing everything in their power to stop Venat, I don't wanna hear about it.

[Iscah]

I'm traumatized enough. I don't want to find out a past reincarnation of me condoned the destruction of an entire world and for my best friend/possible love interest to be tortured for 12 thousand years straight along with my Ancient G'raha who adored me so much he became me as he tried to kill me. No. No more. My WoL has enough blood of sweet, innocent people on her hands thanks to Endwalker. Unless Azem was doing everything in their power to stop Venat, I don't wanna hear about it.

Uh, what blood on our hands? If this is about the ancients, we literally could not stop that from happening because it already happened in the past that leads to our present. All of it was locked in and doomed to happen one way or another, no matter what we did.

And giving Azem a personality has nothing to do with making them complicit in Venat's scheme. Even with what little we are told of Azem now, it is clear that they were working independently of her.

[Zero-ELEC]

Honestly my reading if Endwalker was quite different from yours, I've had so many people of these forums tell me the ancients deserved to have exterminated as they could cope with trauma in the correct way and that Venat had to remake the world to be one of constant suffering to forge better people I'd say that's rather judgemental on people who break under the trauma especially after Venats vile hate spitelaiden speach when she pass judgement on the ancients and makes herself God. Also a story were depressed people turn into monsters and murder everyone around them seems pretty spitefully judgemental to me on people not coping with Trauma is the correct way.

I think you're projecting stuff that isn't there. I would not characterize Venat's words as "vile hate spiteladen" at all.

The scene in question:

Venat (V.O): Even now, I remember standing there. Locked in a moment where the sky is aflame. Where stars fall as tears, and screams darken the seas. Where resignation rots the trees. Where terror twists magicks into abominations. Such is the lament of they who have gone before. The song of they who tried and failed to create a better world. The song of the end. That which hides at the edge of the universe is no longer hope's creation. It is hopelessness incarnate. That day, mankind saw half of its number sacrificed to bring Zodiark. And covering the star in a shroud of aether, we forestalled the Final Days. Yet the cries echoed still... We wept for innocence lost. Wailed for death inevitable. A reality too terrible to bear... And for too many, who sought comfort in gilded memories of joyful days and tranquil nights.

Venat walks through burning streets, sees a man's creation magicks create a terminus beast which eats him. Sees Hythlodaeus bid farewell to Hades. Sees Hermes lament and comes across a group of gathered ancients.

Bitter Ancient: This is all wrong... Why must we suffer so?

Fervent Ancient: It needn't be like this. No, there must be a way to restore things to the way they were. To reclaim the perfect paradise we once had.

Venat: No, my friends. Suffering exists, and we cannot pretend otherwise. No civilization, however great, could eliminate it. If we would live, we must accept it as our constant companion. Let us not seek to forget this tragedy. Let us carry it in our hearts, that we may grow stronger and know true happiness.

Bitter Ancient: We can't accept it! We won't accept it! It will be ours again—a world free of sorrow!

Venat: No, it will not, for there has ever been sorrow. Mankind was but spared its biting sting for a time. So please, open your eyes. To try and reclaim those lives we lost by sacrificing yet more isn't wisdom. It is weakness. No paradise is without its shadows. If we cannot accept this truth and learn from our pain, then our plight shall be repeated.

The ancients turn away from Venat and towards the sky. Close up on Venat's face as she visibly grows crestfallen.

Fervent Ancient: O mighty Zodiark, god born of our boundless faith! We bid you hear our prayer! Accept this offering of lives, and deliver unto us the lives we once had. Deliver unto us the days of old... The days when the star was a font of love, and we knew naught but bliss!

Close up on Venat's face as her eyebrows furrow sadly and she grits her teeth. She closes her eyes and lowers her head. Close up on her hand as her sword manifests in it. The bitter ancient turns to look at Venat, and sees her sword. Venat's face isn't shown. As he speaks the other ancients turn to look at Venat. Low angle long shot from behind Venat, framing her in the middle with the ancients smaller to her sides.

Bitter Ancient: You would destroy it? Our beautiful world?

Venat: Lands that stretched on forever. Skies one could drown in. The heartbeat of nature, silent yet strong.

The shot reverses, a high angle medium shot from the ancients in the foreground but Venat remains in the middle, smaller than the other ancients.

Venat: And amidst it all a people. Beacons of light and life. Laughter that warmed my heart like naught else before. They are my meaning and my purpose. My love.

Close up of Venat as she opens her eyes, a slight smile at her recollection, her head still hung. The shot of the sword returns, followed by a closeup shot of the fervent ancient.

Venat: In spite of... or perhaps because of this, I choose to believe. In mankind's potential. In his ability to find a way forward.

Venat begins walking towards the group of ancients and stops as the camera slowly pans up to her face as she once more opens her eyes and looks forward, no longer smiling or sad.

Venat: So let there be no way back. From that temptation I sunder us. No more shall man have wings to bear him to paradise.

Venat raises her sword to the sky. She lowers her sword to the side of her face as the camera tightens up into a close up.

Venat: Hencecforth, he shall walk.

Venat raises her sword again as light pours from her blade and the camera widens. The other ancients raise their hands and cower from the display as everything is covered in white.

White turns to black as a corridor of white smoke pours from the dark and Venat walks through it, limping, her robes tattered, sword still in her hand.

Venat (V.O): All is excruciating pain. I breath fire and torment.

As the camera pans up her front, her face is revealed to be dirtied and bloodied, her expression tired.

Venat (V.O): I birth a world of suffering to mire and plague.

Venat walks by non-ancient peoples suffering, destitute, arguing, bereft of hope, afraid, mourning. Suddenly a flash of impact, Venat staggers as if hit, her sword falls to the ground as her face gets partially covered in black muck. Her robe is more tattered and dirty as she holds her arm and keeps walking.

Venat (V.O): In one fleeting moment, lives come and go. Ever moving towards the unknown. And in that fleeting moment, they cry for the answer to the question: Why, given life, are they meant to suffer. To die...

Venat staggers forward past the peoples suffering, the camera focusing on them before returning to Venat. Another flash of impact, Venat once again staggers, now fully covered in that dark muck like the blood of those she condemned to suffer.

Venat (V.O): As fragmented, imperfect beings, your is a never-ending quest.

Venat's steps slow, and for a moment, her staggering is replaced by the Warrior of Darkness walking towards Hades at the end of Shadowbringers. Thrice her walking turns into the Warrior of Darkness walking towards Emet-Selch as the camera spins around the duo and back to Venat.

Venat (V.O): A quest to find your purpose, knowing your end is assured. To find the strength to continue, when all strength has left you. To find joy, even as darkness descends...

The camera tightens on Venat's face, her shining eyes piercing through the muck that covers her face

Venat (V.O): ...And amidst deepest despair, light everlasting,

I mean, that literally lays in plain Endwalker's message: "Suffering exists, and we cannot pretend otherwise. [...] If we would live, we must accept it as our constant companion. Let us not seek to forget [...] tragedy. Let us carry it in our hearts, that we may grow stronger and know true happiness." True happiness here being in contrast to the fake happiness that would come from ignoring trauma and pretending bad things didn't happen or can be just waved away. It's not that "constant suffering" forges "better people", rather, pretending that suffering doesn't exist is unhealthy. And the scene goes on to show how Venat's judgement made shit bad for a long-ass time. It literally stains her in black to show she is not blameless for it.

Venat's speech is impassioned, then sad, then resolute. Never hateful or spiteful.

Again, the message and themes of Endwalker are not particularly complex, but they're pretty well defined.

Let's not minimize here. That wasn't "being forced out of their trauma". That was being "murdered en masse by someone they thought they could trust." Let's call a spade a spade and name Venat's actions for what they were.

Yeah, that's what I meant by "in a way that causes trauma for generations" and "in a terrible terrible no good way". Ancients are unique in their capacity for inhumanity by the sheer scale of their powers.