Would you rather healers get more complex healing kits or more complex DPS kits?

[Renathras]

It's frustrating that I can't articulate what I want out of a healer other than "feel good gameplay" based just off ideas I think are neat and would like to see, but I KNOW I'd like a healer (or even just a support dps caster) that focused less on stringent adherence to a rotation or 30s/60s/90s/120s, and more on something at least a bit more dynamic. That being, incoming and outgoing damage. Similar to how Sage's PvP versions of Kardia and Eukrasian Dosis III function, but fleshed out into an entire job and given more depth.

Maybe I'm naïve, maybe a concept like that wouldn't function well in 100% of content 100% of the time, but I bet it'd at least be pretty damn fun.

Agreed. I think it's a far better line of discussion.

That wasn't my argument, and you'd know that if you had actually read to the end of my comment.

"the absolute floor to be not quite so low"?

The proposals are all more complex than the SB healer damage kits, even what SCH was at the time, and I think Roe's WHM proposal is the only one that's not more complex than the SB SCH damage kit (though it is moreso than the SB WHM and AST kits were).

Here's my problem with the more DPS actions/complexity - it affects everyone, whether or not people insist it will, including the people that don't/won't like it. And if it ISN'T ultimately satisfying for the people that want more, then they'll just continue to ask for more. Moreover, it doesn't fix the underlying issues of the role and encounter design/kit mismatch, nor the issues of healer players that are currently dissatisfied but DON'T want more DPS as their solution.

Fair?

Ren has been saying nonstop that both DPS and Healing kits need to be reworked with both of those interacting with each other all the while that each healer be unique from each other so each plays differently. and that several aspects of the game need to be reworked anyways to fix the dull, mind numbing aspect of Healing as a role such as how damage is sent out and mitigated by several classes, massive healing potential and mit from most tanks, and how mechanics are handled by design. He hasnt said healing should be the ONLY change, but that you COULD let the healing kit be the only change TO healers.

While we both agree (i think) that there should be more consistent damage during encounters, I am the person who firmly believes that healing kits should be the only change to healing kits (aside from using DPS actions should interact your healing actions in some way).

Its just so bizarre to watch someone, advocate FOR having both, and people yell at him that we do not need a rework of healing kit or that the damage profile of encounters doesn't need to change, and people just saying he is wrong because of what healers have right now and what is expected of them right now.

Like, you guys know the first thing that goes into designing an encounter is how it interacts with healers, then Tanks, then DPS right?

Oh my god THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!

Ren, can you honestly say what you think most people want to see in each healers’ damage kits? Honestly. No “I guess”, no silly quips, no straw manning, just plain and simple. On average, what do you think people like myself, Ty, ForsakenRoe, Sebazy etc, want to see done to healers? Because at this point idk if you’re trying to be clever and exaggerate or if you actually don’t understand.

Most people? Hard to say, since we have little data about what the majority of the playerbase want.

However, specific to the common Healer Forum posters and people here wanting more DPS actions?

Collectively, they seem to want healers to have rotations somewhere in the ballpark of PLD/SMN/GNB/DNC/RDM (general ballpark) on the lower end, with some few examples being more complex. The feeling overall is that healing takes so few GCDs and cannot in their minds ever take up enough that they will still have a majority of downtime/not-healing GCDs, during which periods they are bored. They feel like they should be entertained by even the most braindead content, where they have even less healing to do, and so require more damage actions/complexity to consume mental space to keep them highly engaged.

There is a feeling that there's no amount of damage that could satisfy them, even in Ultimates or Savages, and thus they need a DPS rotation. SOME have also made comments about not wanting to be a "healbot" or "heal bitch" or "party cheerleader", indicating a kind of disdain for that playstyle or players that do. There seems to be an uncomfortable amount of disdain for players that like to play healers to heal in general (including a general rejection that people can actually enjoy filling health bars), coupled with a belief that such players are lazy and want to get clears or good pares (or both) with a minimal effort, despite the fact one of the most frequent questions people have is "what's the easiest DPS?" and that players that want no effort carries typically don't like playing healers or tanks because of the presumptive belief of more responsibility. There seems to be a strong desire to sort of put such players in their place by having them do lower damage and, in some cases (Semi has said this outright, and several others have said so roundaboutly though insisted that isn't what they meant when called on it...despite doing so over and over again) that such players should not be able to clear high end content, even midcore content like Extremes.

At their best, it seems that, collectively, the desire is to not be bored, a thinking that everyone else enjoys what they do (or will realize they do once forced to do it), and that changes to encounter design, healing kits, Job kits overall (healers and non-healers), and so on CANNOT work and will never satisfy them (or the rest of the playerbase they seem to believe think like them and enjoy what they do), so the only way to make everyone happy (despite many people telling them over and over it wouldn't make them happy) is to have Green DPS kits that are on par with the lower end of DPSers (SMN/DNC), including some variability in the rotation so it isn't the same every time (DNC procs and "Diacloud" are often mentioned). Note I say SMN/DNC here, the phrase "Tank-like" is often used, but let's be real, SMN is Tank-like at this point in terms of complexity and optimization. GNB (and probably DRK...and possibly WAR) arguably has more. But this isn't a nitpick so much as an attempt at a better descriptor. I think if you could take DNC's rotation (change ability names, of course) and replace/merge SGE with it (where you had all DNC's DPS rotation/abilities + SGE's oGCD heals and GCD heals), these people would find that a pretty acceptable Job and would like all the healer Jobs to be in that sort of vein.

At their worst, ...well, you know, I'm not going there. I really don't want to, believe it or not. I do get annoyed with the ad hominems and personal attacks and all that, but I'd rather us focus on actual discussion, not personal attacks.

In fact, I think I might even [hb] my other post for now (and may delete it) because I REALLY don't want to go there, I just want to point out that it's the people choosing to attack me that are disrupting these conversations, not me.

As KenZentra pointed out, I'm not the one trying to advocate for only some people getting what they want. I legitimately DO want everyone to get something they want.

.

But, I'd like too turn this question to you - and the others here:

Not a caricature or ad hominem: What do you think I want? Can you honestly say what it is that I want to see? No "I guess" or silly quips, no straw manning. What is it you think I want to see done to healers? AND to encounter design/overall game design regarding healing - since that's a big part of what I personally think needs to happen?