Would you rather healers get more complex healing kits or more complex DPS kits?

[tearagion]

.

my bad, I guess immediately entering any discussion about healer dps for years to tell people why it's bad and not fun to you isn't stamping your feet.

I didn't call your opinion on more dps buttons idiotic, I called thinking that we only have "one shot" at providing healer feedback idiotic as indicated by the reasoning in the second half of the comment.

Not everyone agrees that encounter design and healing kit potencies need to be worked on either lol, you can find such people in this very thread.

[Renathras]

my bad, I guess...isn't stamping your feet.

If I had done that, it could be.

The problem is I haven't done that.

I've been very consistent at pointing out some people like DPSing on healers and some do not; some healer Jobs past incarnations were better (SCH, AST) and some were not (WHM, SGE had no prior incarnation). And my own pitched idea, the 4 Healers Model, incorporates more DPS buttons and damage actions on at least one and generally 2-3 of the healer Jobs. Several times I've even said all 4 as long as one is very limited (basically take EW WHM and give it SB Aero 3 and Thin Air; that's still an additional DPS action in Aero 3).

Clearly I'm not up in arms at the very mention of more DPS actions.

Not everyone agrees that encounter design and healing kit potencies need to be worked on either lol...

PRETTY MUCH everyone does. FAR MORE than just want more DPS actions only.

Even many of the people that want more DPS actions (e.g. in Ty's surveys) complained about encounter design, meaning an agreement it needs to be changed.

Even most of the "more DPS actions" regulars here don't oppose encounter design and kit reworks because they disagree, they oppose them because they aren't sure how you could do it retroactively for all encounters in the game's history to keep them clearble/think it's too big a task, and, for whatever reason, don't recognize or accept that this somewhat happens with old content every time there's a new Expansion (potency change and ability pruning/additions affect old content runs) or that other things have been done before in such cases (e.g. Epic Echo when the item squish happened). But the point is, they do agree that encounter design and healing/mitigation kits of Jobs are (at least part of) the problem, they just believe it CAN'T be fixed, which is why those people reject it as a solution.

People like Sebazy and Aravell, clearly no fans of mine, agree that the problem is far more than just damage kits.

While I'm sure there are probably some people that think encounter design itself is just fine, or that DPS and Tank healing, sustain, and mitigation, or healer kit overall healing and abilities are allllll just fine, I suspect they are a term I do not use often - a minority.

MECHANICS are fine, but encounter tuning, rates of damage, predictability of damage (imagine if every DPS Job had the exact same rotation every encounter, rigid and planned down to the second; that's modern healer gameplay once a fight has been figured out and everyone executes mechanics properly), and the mismatch between how powerful our healing is vs encounters and the ability of Tanks and DPSers to just clear stuff without any healers.

I think most people recognize those are problems, and not one of them is fixed by "more DPS actions/complexity" on healer Jobs, much less on all the healer Jobs even over the objections of people that don't want them.

[Katish]

PRETTY MUCH everyone does. FAR MORE than just want more DPS actions only.

While I'm sure there are probably some people that think encounter design itself is just fine, or that DPS and Tank healing, sustain, and mitigation, or healer kit overall healing and abilities are allllll just fine, I suspect they are a term I do not use often - a minority.

MECHANICS are fine, but encounter tuning, rates of damage, predictability of damage (imagine if every DPS Job had the exact same rotation every encounter, rigid and planned down to the second; that's modern healer gameplay once a fight has been figured out and everyone executes mechanics properly), and the mismatch between how powerful our healing is vs encounters and the ability of Tanks and DPSers to just clear stuff without any healers.

I think there is where we draw our differences I cannot say something I don't know. "PRETTY MUCH everyone does. FAR MORE than just want more DPS actions only." I mean can you observe this and speculate but even then I think observing the situation might have altercations. Nor do I agree with mechanics being fine, as the more you see a repeated mechanic the more you become used to it (that's just objective)...not to mention none of the mechanics address having a healer in particular do anything that is outside the realms of dps, and you could say just increase the rate of which damage goes out but that actually isn't a good solution because this would undermine healing potency for shielding potency (not to say it isn't a solution but it doesn't address the problem of having minut dps options because there is always a line) [and it would create something healers have never been before (which might actually throw people off the role)]. But if we were to increase the utility of the healer and create new mechanics that only healers could answer, it would stop them from being replaced and it would create a feel good feeling to answering that mechanic, because as a healer, only you could answer it. (Whatever that mechanic may be)

These differing opinions showcase something that is an obvious however, which is that everyone has a different perspective. That's why the role needs to be looked at every angle from every perspective, not just the ones you or I want to see happen.

[Renathras]

I think there is where we draw our differences...

/sigh

So, this the part where we derail the discussion again with quibbles about technicalities, is it?

Can we just not and say we didn't?

How many posters in this thread have said that ONLY healer DPS kits need to be changed and everything else is fine? Half a dozen?

How much ink has been spilled talking about how there's not enough to heal, how Tanks have too much sustain, how mitigation is outsourced to DPSers (who ALSO have too much healing) and so on? Even among people that do want more DPS actions added here, on reddit, and in the streaming community, these have been topics of discussion. It's something nearly universally recognized, by all the people opinionated enough to speak on the topic, as a problem.

So I don't stand this newfound desire to "well akshually it's not EVERYone!"

Know what else isn't everyone?

...people wanting more DPS actions.

So if we're going with the nebulous "if at least one person disagrees, it's not everyone" line of logic to oppose some ideas, then that means "more DPS actions/complexity" is just as quickly disqualified.

.

I prefer an all of the above solution, personally. Whether that be a holistic, top down complete overhaul of healing in this game from encounter design to damage umpredictability to Tank AND Healer AND DPS kits to non-damage support actions and even to more DPS actions OR an all of the above by way of the 4 Healers Model (a more limited "por que no los dos?"/"why not both?" to healer Job design/kits being the only thing changed), I think this is a problem that will not be solved by just slapping a DPS rotation onto every healer Job, and I very much think that would make it worse.

But the fact is, most people who care to exercise their voice on the topic agree that the problem does not demand "more DPS actions/complexity" solution. It demands something else.

And very likely, a "more DPS actions/complexity" would not be a stopgap, it would just make things worse for a lot of people.

[Katish]

/sigh

So, this the part where we derail the discussion again with quibbles about technicalities, is it?

Can we just not and say we didn't?

How many posters in this thread have said that ONLY healer DPS kits need to be changed and everything else is fine? Half a dozen?

How much ink has been spilled talking about how there's not enough to heal, how Tanks have too much sustain, how mitigation is outsourced to DPSers (who ALSO have too much healing) and so on? Even among people that do want more DPS actions added here, on reddit, and in the streaming community, these have been topics of discussion. It's something nearly universally recognized, by all the people opinionated enough to speak on the topic, as a problem.

So I don't stand this newfound desire to "well akshually it's not EVERYone!"

Know what else isn't everyone?

...people wanting more DPS actions.

So if we're going with the nebulous "if at least one person disagrees, it's not everyone" line of logic to oppose some ideas, then that means "more DPS actions/complexity" is just as quickly disqualified.

.

I prefer an all of the above solution, personally. Whether that be a holistic, top down complete overhaul of healing in this game from encounter design to damage umpredictability to Tank AND Healer AND DPS kits to non-damage support actions and even to more DPS actions OR an all of the above by way of the 4 Healers Model (a more limited "por que no los dos?"/"why not both?" to healer Job design/kits being the only thing changed), I think this is a problem that will not be solved by just slapping a DPS rotation onto every healer Job, and I very much think that would make it worse.

But the fact is, most people who care to exercise their voice on the topic agree that the problem does not demand "more DPS actions/complexity" solution. It demands something else.

And very likely, a "more DPS actions/complexity" would not be a stopgap, it would just make things worse for a lot of people.

I am not saying the latter is okay either... I would rather them balance the entirety of the kit itself as that would be at everyone's best interest:
"These differing opinions showcase something that is an obvious however, which is that everyone has a different perspective. That's why the role needs to be looked at every angle from every perspective, not just the ones you or I want to see happen. "

I don't adhere to anyone's design philosophy, I might like ideas, but it is ultimately up to the developer to implement the needed steps. Whatever those steps may be or look like should be by feedback basis alone and interpretation, learn by feedback and adhere to the kit. Everyone's opinion matters and shouldn't be disregarded as not a solution because it could very well be a solution, might not be the best one...but it most certainly should be at least held in memory as a basis to what the kit needs, and if it's shared enough should be what the kit should aim to strive for, with fight design in mind.