How would you solve the boring "damage rotation" of the healers?

[Rein_eon_Osborne]

Didn't they made Alphinaud's variant of Toxikon an oGCD in one of the solo RP duty from MSQ?

[Aravell]

I'm not sure I'd describe myself as happy they exist. Toxikon is insulting to me, because it's what I think the designers thought would make Sage satisfactory to the collection of players who were complaining in Shadowbringers. And Ruin II has been disappointing for ages, and its use cases are hanging on by a thread as of EW because of the 1.5 second cast time. If they got sliced off as well, it wouldn't make me anymore unhappy with healers than I already am.

I find neither spell interesting as well, some quick thoughts about how they could be made better:

SGE
-Phlegma now costs 2000 MP and has no cooldown
-Toxikon now generates 500 MP and reduces Phlegma MP cost by 50%
-Everytime Kardia procs, you fill a new gauge, when this gauge fills, you get an addersting charge

Phlegma is now your movement tool, you don't lose damage but you take out a chunk of your own MP. MP management would become relevant again and you'd have to be careful not to run out of MP during burst.

SCH
-Can consume 50 fairy gauge to charge Ruin II
-Charged Ruin II does the same damage as your current Broil and returns 20 fairy gauge

This would make Ruin II useful as a movement tool again while giving an extra use to the fairy gauge, it's not a gain either so the fairy gauge won't be emptied for dps.

[ty_taurus]

I personally like the idea of making Toxikon oGCD since Sage is lacking any damage oGCDs. Toss a few addersting procs under Phlegma, have Dosis proc some other skill, and I'd probably play Sage a lot more than now.

Casually shameless self-promotion aside, I mainly want to think more about Rhizomata in my idea. But that's something for another day.

SCH
-Can consume 50 fairy gauge to charge Ruin II
-Charged Ruin II does the same damage as your current Broil and returns 20 fairy gauge

This would make Ruin II useful as a movement tool again while giving an extra use to the fairy gauge, it's not a gain either so the fairy gauge won't be emptied for dps.

I'd rather just go back to ARR Ruin II still. Same potency, double MP cost. It's simple, it's easy, and it puts more value on MP as a system.

[ForsakenRoe]

I mean, "refining" may very well end up being something unrecognizable compared to the Toxikon we have now. If it were addressed, I don't think it I would look at the two as the same action. We need to ship of Theseus Toxikon.

Yeh tbh the only thing about Toxikon I'd want to keep is the name, and that 'it uses Addersting Gauge'. But as I posted several pages back, I'd 'ship of Theseus' the gauge too.

Didn't they made Alphinaud's variant of Toxikon an oGCD in one of the solo RP duty from MSQ?

They also made the PVP variant of Toxikon an OGCD

[ty_taurus]

They also made the PVP variant of Toxikon an OGCD

It's almost like the correct answer was there all along. I can do with keeping Toxikon as GCD though if it also enables a follow-up OGCD.

[Turtledeluxe]

I disagree. No job should have a barrier to entry, and every job should provide room for mastery.

By way of analogy: We have Tic-tac-toe, Reversi, Chess, and Go. Anyone can read the rules for these games, play them, and have a bit of fun, so long as their opponent plays at a similar level that they do. (Anyone should be able to pick up any job and get through the MSQ.) However, we don't speak of masters of Tic-tac-toe because the game is far too simple for "mastery" to mean anything, and we recognize that it's okay for some games to be more difficult to master than others. (No job should be like Tic-tac-toe, but it's okay if some are more like Go than others.)

Well yes obviously the barrier to entry is not a reference to being able to play the job but play it effectively. Ie to master it. It's also a reference to disclaimers players constantly use ie "BLM is a hard Job". It's ok for some jobs to have that disclaimer but devs seem increasingly scared of this.

Additionally I do not agree that across the board, jobs should be easy to play and challenging to master. I think it would be better and more accommodating to all play styles if some jobs were easier to play and master. And you may say "well then everyone will play that class" but they do this already- look at WAR, SMN, RPR. The problem is that we lack classes that have that room for mastery hence why several jobs are plagued with "my class feels boring" complaints (not just healers).

Which brings me back to the original point-- there has to be a healer job that is straightforward and perhaps even simple compared to the others. Yes it sucks but that is part of compromising and the lack of compromise is precisely why these discussions go nowhere. Yes in a perfect world every job would be complex and interesting but not every player wants that and they deserve an experience too where they aren't totally decimated dps wise (or whatever metric, healing) just for a gameplay preference.

Though to be clear, I think said classes that are more straightforward still deserve a hard look at their gameplay loops to ensure they feel satisfying despite being more accessible.

[TheDustyOne]

Well yes obviously the barrier to entry is not a reference to being able to play the job but play it effectively. Ie to master it.

I think you're getting them mixed up; a low barrier to entry means someone can pick up the job and play it effectively, but mastering it involves going to great lengths to optimize it, not merely doing well with it.

BLM as you pointed out isn't actually that hard to understand at it's core, however, it has small nuances and techniques that you don't need to touch to be able to play it effectively; transpose-lines comes to mind. A new BLM player can get by with simply knowing to use Fire III when they finish their Umbral Ice phase and can get by with using their Firestarter proc only when they need to move, an experienced BLM may understand how strong it is to instead save Firestarter so they can Transpose from Umbral Ice and get a slight bonus from switching back to Astral Fire. It's a job that is fairly simple, but absolutely difficult to master, and satisfying to play well.

A BLM main could probably better explain how to best use Transpose, I've only had a very cursory glance at it and I don't use it in my own BLM gameplay, I stick to a standard rotation myself.

SMN on the other hand has very little to master beyond its basic rotation, the most you need to learn is when not to use Ifrit and Garuda Slipstream. It's simple to play, but mastery occurs very quickly, and ends up being pretty unsatisfying after a while.

Being easy to learn and hard to master is the mark of good game design, having jobs that are hard to get into simply because they're hard to get into doesn't make the design good. Some ideas and concepts for how a job might play may necessitate a higher skill floor, but ideally should still have some fallback options to avoid punishing bad play excessively.

[Turtledeluxe]

I think you're getting them mixed up; a low barrier to entry means someone can pick up the job and play it effectively, but mastering it involves going to great lengths to optimize it, not merely doing well with it.

BLM as you pointed out isn't actually that hard to understand at it's core, however, it has small nuances and techniques that you don't need to touch to be able to play it effectively; transpose-lines comes to mind. A new BLM player can get by with simply knowing to use Fire III when they finish their Umbral Ice phase and can get by with using their Firestarter proc only when they need to move, an experienced BLM may understand how strong it is to instead save Firestarter so they can Transpose from Umbral Ice and get a slight bonus from switching back to Astral Fire. It's a job that is fairly simple, but absolutely difficult to master, and satisfying to play well.

A BLM main could probably better explain how to best use Transpose, I've only had a very cursory glance at it and I don't use it in my own BLM gameplay, I stick to a standard rotation myself.

SMN on the other hand has very little to master beyond its basic rotation, the most you need to learn is when not to use Ifrit and Garuda Slipstream. It's simple to play, but mastery occurs very quickly, and ends up being pretty unsatisfying after a while.

Being easy to learn and hard to master is the mark of good game design, having jobs that are hard to get into simply because they're hard to get into doesn't make the design good. Some ideas and concepts for how a job might play may necessitate a higher skill floor, but ideally should still have some fallback options to avoid punishing bad play excessively.

I just think i didn't choose the right phrasing- I was not suggesting to make classes hard to play. That would kill the game.

As far as comparing BLM vs SMN you are correct. I would point out as a BLM main that I'm highly aware SMN is easier to play and gets you viable DPS with the benefits of high mobility and res. SMN is basically ez mode in comparison. But I will never move to SMN because I don't want that gameplay experience. It's an excellent comparison for illustrating how one class is clearly less popular (BLM) but satisfies a notable amount of players' gameplay preference, which is a very good thing imo. SMN has its own issues I've heard but I don't think bringing to the scale of BLM males any sense. As I've said before every role has and should have a simple but fun job that does most things well (not the best in all aspects, but well). SMN is that for casters imo but I've heard the rotation is boring and that may need some looking at. Similarly every role should have at least one BLM like class to offer those nuances and high ceiling.

[IDontPetLalas]

I just think i didn't choose the right phrasing- I was not suggesting to make classes hard to play. That would kill the game.

As far as comparing BLM vs SMN you are correct. I would point out as a BLM main that I'm highly aware SMN is easier to play and gets you viable DPS with the benefits of high mobility and res. SMN is basically ez mode in comparison. But I will never move to SMN because I don't want that gameplay experience. It's an excellent comparison for illustrating how one class is clearly less popular (BLM) but satisfies a notable amount of players' gameplay preference, which is a very good thing imo. SMN has its own issues I've heard but I don't think bringing to the scale of BLM males any sense. As I've said before every role has and should have a simple but fun job that does most things well (not the best in all aspects, but well). SMN is that for casters imo but I've heard the rotation is boring and that may need some looking at. Similarly every role should have at least one BLM like class to offer those nuances and high ceiling.

As you just stated 'As I've said before every role has and should have a simple but fun job that does most things well (not the best in all aspects, but well). SMN is that for casters imo but I've heard the rotation is boring and that may need some looking at."

As per the prior posts, the barrier to entry, whether for casters of for healers, may be low (which I believe it is today) , with no nuances, no skill expression whatsoever, however if it remains that way over 90 levels ,with no skill ceiling- then it's quite likely many healer mains won't find the job engaging, or, as TheDustyOne said 'unsatisfying".

Also, in regards to healer identity - if you look at the feedback from the PVP forums, quite a few people liked the way that the healer changes were done because each healer is very distinct, more so than in PVE. It's a pity that we don't have more of that feeling in PVE, rather than what we have after the pure/barrier changes.

[Renathras]

...

So you know: When trying to understand someone's perspective, the thing you should do is listen to them and, if what they're saying doesn't make sense to you yet, ask more questions of them.
...not tell them why you think they're wrong, since that's not you seeking to understand, it's seeking to correct or change them. You can't really say "I don't understand you" when you aren't trying to understand, only to correct/change them.

Anyway, that's also common, so I'll just move onto the points and questions.

1) Right, but we're not talking about "experienced and inexperienced". We're talking about "experienced with what is and experienced with what you want to move to". So it's a different argument here. If we change nothing, a person experienced with current WHM playing as they do now will probably be pretty optimal in DT (since not much is likely to change on the DPS side of things). On the other hand, if we do the changes you want, now that person has a gap between them and the "new crowd" who pick up the Job with its more complex kit. So this is a different argument, and thus an invalid comparison. Also, see my answer to (2). A WHM gray can clear content with a party of oranges. A WHM gray cannot clear content in a party of grays. There are far more grays in PF than there are oranges, from my experience. Further, I haven't said we "can't have optimisation of both damage and healing" and it is ""not allowed". HAVE I NOT SAID over and over again to do that with 2 or 3 of the Healer Jobs JUST NOT ALL OF THEM?

2) AND YET, my experiences have happened. While the DPS players are blamed for enrages, I don't care about blame. I care about getting the clears of the content. And if I'm able to drag some weaker parties through NOW but won't be able to later, THAT IS RELEVANT. You say "I've been doing reclears" - how many REclear parties can you join when you haven't gotten your FIRST CLEAR yet? Oh, right: None. Meaning you have to get that FIRST clear first. The problem here (I'm talking about Extremes, btw), is that high end players with statics DO NOT understand the average player experience in this game. You guys have your BiS Savage gear and your static team, you go into an Extreme on patch launch week, and get your clear. Or you join with all the other top players clearing it week one. People like me wait a few weeks, watch videos, get some additional gear, then go into the content. By then, all you high achievers are done and we have to do the content with...well, everyone else who isn't. AND you won't let us join your reclear parties since we haven't gotten our FIRST clear yet. So we have to deal with the "rabble of scrubs" from the general PF community who ALSO haven't cleared yet (otherwise they'd also be in farm/reclear parties), don't know optimal rotations, and often you can't even get to watch a YouTube video, much less expect they will go to the Balance to know their optimal rotation even ignoring that they won't have hours of target dummy practice even if you could get them to do so...all to get said first clear. Only then is the "reclear experience" relevant. This disconnect between high end raiders and people with statics vs everyone else is one of the cruxes of these discussions, and I don't understand why people don't understand this. I get we're often insular in life where we know our own experiences and underestimate what everyone else has to deal with, but it's extremely important in discussing changes like this to understand it.

3) You just asked me "Why do you think...will be considered bad players". I answered the question. Why are you asking a different question now? Why did you ask me "Why do you think people will consider you bad" if you were going to turn around and say "Well, it doesn't matter and you shouldn't be ashamed"? The fact remains, it's relevant. Statics recruit and kick based on that, people talk about it, even here where it's a direct violation of ToS, people have mentioned other people's parses (and/or lack of clear history) as reason to attack their perspectives and arguments. When all of that is happening - yes, it is relevant. If none of that was happening? Sure, it wouldn't be. But all of that IS happening, so it IS relevant.

4) Again, IT CAN BE: My 4 Healers Model is specifically saying to do it. Just not to do it on ALL OF THE HEALER JOBS. Why is this such a difficult concept to understand? You keep saying I'm adamantly opposed to the idea when I VERY CLEARLY am not, as I've PROPOSED IT MYSELF hundreds of times. What you don't understand is people who don't like optimizing DPS will not be happy if they're forced to do it on all Healer Jobs. It's like asking "why can't everyone be happy only optimizing healing?". Because not everyone enjoys that, or enjoys it under some conditions. It's like asking "Why can't everyone's favorite color be blue?" Because people have different preferences. I dislike optimizing for damage. It's that simple. It's why I don't play DPS Jobs often, and when I do, I play the ones most easy to optimize, because I don't enjoy that. I DO enjoy optimizing healing. I like thinking about which spells are MP efficient (which is totally irrelevant now but USED to be relevant), which are the best use of my resources, which factor in things like movement for mechanics, and so on. Those are optimizations I enjoy. And BOTH SIDES CAN BE HAPPY...with the 4 Healers Model. It is, in fact, the ONLY model that CAN make both sides happy. And I'm genuinely confused as to why that is difficult to understand...